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Old 02-20-2006, 06:08 AM   #1
frank
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Cartoon riots.

Okey people some serious stuff now.

Muslims are killing Christians (and accidentally even each other!) over a couple of cartoons made my Danish people and published by an independent newspaper. Muslim countries are banning Danish products and embassies are abandoned out of fear for violence!

What are your thoughts on this matter?

I for one think that those muslims should get their act together and have to start acting normal. On the other hand, an Italian minister wearing a shirt with one of those cartoons on it is too provoking. I can understand that muslims take offence from those cartoons, but violence and man-slaughter is not the way to handle things!

I'm a bit worried that this will get out of hand.

***NOTE: I do not wish to categorize all muslim people as being violent nor do I disrespect them or what so ever. Everybody's free to have their own thoughts and ideas, believes and opinions.
If any of you feel this is not the place to discuss this matter, feel free to let me know and I'll delete this post/thread. However I believe this place is clean enough to discuss any material like adults (, also referring to the Christianity thread).***

Last edited by frank : 02-20-2006 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 02-20-2006, 08:15 AM   #2
paiste2002
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I don't really give a toss about Muslims,Jews etc.. cos I ain't one of em
but I suppose with all the bad news and scaremongering going on Muslims
the world over are fed up with the west. This I can understand and must
say that although I disagree with violent protests I can't say that the
American inspired biggot view of muslims that is always being pushed
over the air-waves is a clever thing. It will come back to bite...
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Old 02-20-2006, 08:16 AM   #3
electrizer
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i'm not really into politics but i'm wondering about one thing. where did all this aggresion come from? how has it started? they have their coutry (unlike those from ETA or those figting for Cashmire liberation), their religion hadn't been violated and considered bad until 9.11 (at least i thinks so), and they dare to decide about people's lives and threaten the whole world. maybe i should'n be talking like this but even if my religion was insulted somehow, I certainly wouldn't resort to any aggresion and violence (i'm a catholic of really deep faith) . maybe i'm not being fair towards those people. correct me if i'm wrong.

btw i think it's a great topic as far as puttin it here on this forum is concerned.

I, personally, don't give a **** about politics because (especially having all those negative experiences concerning Polish government :/ ) i've learned that it's no point in screaming at the tv while watching news or discussing about it because I won't change anything anyway.

I know that i'm stepping off the topic but let me mention one short dialogue from the Family Guy episode "Screwed the Pooch" between Bill Gates and Michael Eisner (they were flying across the sky with their jetpacks and Eisner remarks:

- ME: Bill, look at those people! They look like ants!
- BG: They are ants Michael, they are ants.

God bless you.
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Old 02-20-2006, 10:27 AM   #4
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Frank, my family immigrated to the U.S. from Copenhagen Denmark in 1910 or should I say kobenhaven the old spelling, came thru Ellis Island in New York on a boat named the Campania, so I have been following this very close. Sometimes we must remember that others that don't have freeedoms or never had them think differntly. They're suppressed and never known anything different, that's how they perceive the world because that's really all they know.
Is it right, of course not, but if your raised to know only one thing, that's what you will bleed in the end no matter what anyone says. It's culture, way of life and the only way they've known.
I'm proud of my people Frank, I hope they don't stop expressing themselves because that will be the end of your freedoms to an extent.
I will leave you with this last thought, stand up everytime your freedom is at stake or you'll regret it, just look at the Bush situation in the US. America is hurting, our freedoms are hurting, our economy is hurting, our schools are hurting, **** Cheneys hunting partner is hurting< LOL- had to get that one in there. If America would of only stood up and demanded better, our country and the world would be in better shape right now.

Keep on it Frank, young people like yourself are the future of equality and freedom for all, wear that face proud. There's no doubt I would die for my countries freedom, but dying for someone elses that dont believe in it just isn't in my plans. This mess is like smoking(which I do) someone can tell you a lifetime to quit, but unless you want to do it, it really is a waste of time and does no good. The muslims dont want to change thousands of years of culture and their way of life just for freedom. Freedom to them is their religion and their after life.
I debate with christians all the time, even in America the religious believes in spreding the word of God to anyone at almost any cost, even to the point of being hypocritical of the bible and murder. An example is if you don't go to church or believe in god your a bad person and is alienated from their community. Doesn't the bible state we should love our brother. But without reserve, a lot of these people grow in hatred of others much of the time due to their mis-understanding of the bible and their prejudice or intolerance of others. Some just pick and choose what the bible says to rationalize their actions. Does anyone know what's been the leading killer of humanity since we've known? Try religion, killed more than any disease or gun. People are killing and getting violent over someone that is supposed to be understanding, forgiving and loving. The theology confusion is aggrevating and frustrating to me at times, but I do understand both sides of the fence, I just don't agree with one side.
I'm hope someday I can travel to Copenhagen, I have racked up a big phone bill over the years trying to find family to no avail, I hope I find some so I can visit someday. I don't need family to visit, but it sure would be nice.


Good luck my friend.
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Old 02-20-2006, 12:31 PM   #5
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I have a few Muslim friends, and I think they're more pissed off at the extremists taking ridiculous action, than the extremists are at the West. It's important to realise that it's a very small minority of Muslims who take this offence, and act like they do. Any people of the religion I've met in person are normal people. It's a shame one small minority give the religion a bad name. I've heard some pretty bad stuff directed at Muslims in general, which I'm sure we all agree is absurd to assume that the whole of the religion is up in arms over a cartoon.

I think it is important to be able to laugh and see the lighter side of religion. Obviously things must be kept in perspective, and not allowed to get out of hand.
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Old 02-21-2006, 01:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ataraxia
I have a few Muslim friends, and I think they're more pissed off at the extremists taking ridiculous action, than the extremists are at the West. It's important to realise that it's a very small minority of Muslims who take this offence, and act like they do. Any people of the religion I've met in person are normal people. It's a shame one small minority give the religion a bad name. I've heard some pretty bad stuff directed at Muslims in general, which I'm sure we all agree is absurd to assume that the whole of the religion is up in arms over a cartoon.

I think it is important to be able to laugh and see the lighter side of religion. Obviously things must be kept in perspective, and not allowed to get out of hand.

I agree with all u say except for the first sentence in the last paragraph. You see, they are not affected because they dont have any sense of humour but because those pictures are against a main rule in their religion-that no one under any circumstances should create visual images of god or his prophet...this may sound funny to us but we have to realize that those people do not think like we do when it comes to religion, which is not wrong of course an is absolutely normal: our religions are different. Many of the Muslims in bulgaria were offended when those pictures were printed here-of course civilized people all over the world protest quietly but there will always be such people like those who destroy ambassies and stuff when being provoked in such cruel (in their opinion) way.
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:00 AM   #7
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im a muslim and im havent become violent or anything regarding those cartoons, nor have anyone i know personally. however, there was some violence in my city and im really ashamed about it. i mean, its sorta giving my people a bad name. i bet there are many people in the west who would relate violence with muslims. seriously, all muslims arent like this. its just the ones you see on TV breaking stuff, the ones who have completely missed the point of islam.

anyway, rant over, and back to independance exercises.

Faraz
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Old 02-21-2006, 06:35 AM   #8
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I think you're right about not all Muslims being like that, and I sure hope so. But. If that's indeed the case, why didn't we see huge muslim demonstrations against the terrorist acts in 2001? Why don't we hear that voice anywhere, except when asked directly?

When considering how great a burden it must be for moderate and peaceful muslims, to have their religion, often referred to as the "religion of peace", taken hostage by exstremists in this way - why don't we see more protests than is the case. Only now, after the cartoon incident are we beginning to hear (here in Denmark at least) the notion that "not all muslims are...". I'm delighted to hear it, but I sure wished it had come MUCH quicker and more voluntarily....I'm just curious as to why this is.
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Old 02-21-2006, 11:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fede
I think you're right about not all Muslims being like that, and I sure hope so. But. If that's indeed the case, why didn't we see huge muslim demonstrations against the terrorist acts in 2001? Why don't we hear that voice anywhere, except when asked directly?


The entire WORLD had our sympathies on 12Sept01. I don't think anyone demonstrated, in the classic sense. The enitre world demonstrated goodwill, kindness, compassion, sympathy, condolences. The voice was one, and unanimous, possibly why we couldn't discern one voice from the next, figuratively. We were all one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fede
When considering how great a burden it must be for moderate and peaceful muslims, to have their religion, often referred to as the "religion of peace", taken hostage by exstremists in this way - why don't we see more protests than is the case. Only now, after the cartoon incident are we beginning to hear (here in Denmark at least) the notion that "not all muslims are...". I'm delighted to hear it, but I sure wished it had come MUCH quicker and more voluntarily....I'm just curious as to why this is.


One of the many downfalls of media owned by, in this case, six multi-national corporations, is that they can control the message they want you to see, hear, and experience. The story that will make the most profit will be the one you see. News to educate and enlighten its masses, in the US AFAIK, most likely elsewhere, is almost non-existent.

Extremism, of any kind, is a burden on ALL those who do not think that way, who think in such extremes. Osama bin Laden is the worst kind of person, for what he did and what he's done, what he stands for, but the near equivalent in this country is Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps...these are the extremists that we also need to keep an eye on, in addition to ObL. Quite frankly, I'm more wary of the men I mentioned before than I am of ObL.
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Old 02-21-2006, 01:46 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fede
I think you're right about not all Muslims being like that, and I sure hope so. But. If that's indeed the case, why didn't we see huge muslim demonstrations against the terrorist acts in 2001? Why don't we hear that voice anywhere, except when asked directly?

When considering how great a burden it must be for moderate and peaceful muslims, to have their religion, often referred to as the "religion of peace", taken hostage by exstremists in this way - why don't we see more protests than is the case. Only now, after the cartoon incident are we beginning to hear (here in Denmark at least) the notion that "not all muslims are...". I'm delighted to hear it, but I sure wished it had come MUCH quicker and more voluntarily....I'm just curious as to why this is.



If u didn't hear something doesn't mean it wasn't said. Maybe u weren't listening.
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Old 02-21-2006, 06:11 PM   #11
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Man, I hope they don't get " Family guy " over there!
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Old 02-21-2006, 06:46 PM   #12
frank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electrizer
i'm not really into politics but i'm wondering about one thing. where did all this aggresion come from? how has it started? they have their coutry (unlike those from ETA or those figting for Cashmire liberation), their religion hadn't been violated and considered bad until 9.11 (at least i thinks so), and they dare to decide about people's lives and threaten the whole world. maybe i should'n be talking like this but even if my religion was insulted somehow, I certainly wouldn't resort to any aggresion and violence (i'm a catholic of really deep faith) . maybe i'm not being fair towards those people. correct me if i'm wrong.


Perhaps you shouldn't be talking be talking like that, however I understand what you mean and agree in a way. I'm not a religious man, but no matter how hard people offend me, I've never turned to violence and I never will.

Obviously, acting violently out of frustration of an insult is not coherent to a believe, so humans in general are to blame for this and the muslims in this particular subject are only an example.

(And what's ETA?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrizer
btw i think it's a great topic as far as puttin it here on this forum is concerned.

I, personally, don't give a **** about politics because (especially having all those negative experiences concerning Polish government :/ ) i've learned that it's no point in screaming at the tv while watching news or discussing about it because I won't change anything anyway.

I know that i'm stepping off the topic but let me mention one short dialogue from the Family Guy episode "Screwed the Pooch" between Bill Gates and Michael Eisner (they were flying across the sky with their jetpacks and Eisner remarks:

- ME: Bill, look at those people! They look like ants!
- BG: They are ants Michael, they are ants.

God bless you.


Politics is more that watching the news on tv. Voting (if not corrupt) is a way of contributing your views. Besides that, you can also become a political figure yourself.

Family guy is a GREAT show which cracks me up every episode I see!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemi
Frank, my family immigrated to the U.S. from Copenhagen Denmark in 1910 or should I say kobenhaven the old spelling, came thru Ellis Island in New York on a boat named the Campania, so I have been following this very close. Sometimes we must remember that others that don't have freeedoms or never had them think differntly. They're suppressed and never known anything different, that's how they perceive the world because that's really all they know.
Is it right, of course not, but if your raised to know only one thing, that's what you will bleed in the end no matter what anyone says. It's culture, way of life and the only way they've known.
I'm proud of my people Frank, I hope they don't stop expressing themselves because that will be the end of your freedoms to an extent.
I will leave you with this last thought, stand up everytime your freedom is at stake or you'll regret it, just look at the Bush situation in the US. America is hurting, our freedoms are hurting, our economy is hurting, our schools are hurting, **** Cheneys hunting partner is hurting< LOL- had to get that one in there. If America would of only stood up and demanded better, our country and the world would be in better shape right now.

Keep on it Frank, young people like yourself are the future of equality and freedom for all, wear that face proud. There's no doubt I would die for my countries freedom, but dying for someone elses that dont believe in it just isn't in my plans. This mess is like smoking(which I do) someone can tell you a lifetime to quit, but unless you want to do it, it really is a waste of time and does no good. The muslims dont want to change thousands of years of culture and their way of life just for freedom. Freedom to them is their religion and their after life.
I debate with christians all the time, even in America the religious believes in spreding the word of God to anyone at almost any cost, even to the point of being hypocritical of the bible and murder. An example is if you don't go to church or believe in god your a bad person and is alienated from their community. Doesn't the bible state we should love our brother. But without reserve, a lot of these people grow in hatred of others much of the time due to their mis-understanding of the bible and their prejudice or intolerance of others. Some just pick and choose what the bible says to rationalize their actions. Does anyone know what's been the leading killer of humanity since we've known? Try religion, killed more than any disease or gun. People are killing and getting violent over someone that is supposed to be understanding, forgiving and loving. The theology confusion is aggrevating and frustrating to me at times, but I do understand both sides of the fence, I just don't agree with one side.
I'm hope someday I can travel to Copenhagen, I have racked up a big phone bill over the years trying to find family to no avail, I hope I find some so I can visit someday. I don't need family to visit, but it sure would be nice.


Good luck my friend.


Great post man. **** Cheney's first name being censored by the forum is funny.

I have to say, you're using the term "freedom" a bit relatively and that's because it probably is.
"The muslims dont want to change thousands of years of culture and their way of life just for freedom. Freedom to them is their religion and their after life."
I don't have a proper insight to their believe and way of life, but that's what I often think.

"There's no doubt I would die for my countries freedom, but dying for someone elses that dont believe in it just isn't in my plans."
That's something.. I'd never fight for my country. I don't believe in that, really. I like and dislike people from my own country as much as I like and dislike them from any other country. No propaganda, rambling president/prime-minister/king/queen, raging general is ever gonna change that. Wars have bad habits of not telling people what it's really about, which in most cases is money and power.

I may sound a little negative towards you know, but I really appreciate your post and opinion and especially THIS: "Does anyone know what's been the leading killer of humanity since we've known? Try religion, killed more than any disease or gun." is really true.

I hope you can get in contact with your family someday man, good luck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ataraxia
I have a few Muslim friends, and I think they're more pissed off at the extremists taking ridiculous action, than the extremists are at the West. It's important to realise that it's a very small minority of Muslims who take this offence, and act like they do. Any people of the religion I've met in person are normal people. It's a shame one small minority give the religion a bad name. I've heard some pretty bad stuff directed at Muslims in general, which I'm sure we all agree is absurd to assume that the whole of the religion is up in arms over a cartoon.

I think it is important to be able to laugh and see the lighter side of religion. Obviously things must be kept in perspective, and not allowed to get out of hand.


Thanks, that's an enlightening post, really. If I was to believe only newspapers and TV, I truely wouldn't know any better! :| F*ck the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan_vortex
I agree with all u say except for the first sentence in the last paragraph. You see, they are not affected because they dont have any sense of humour but because those pictures are against a main rule in their religion-that no one under any circumstances should create visual images of god or his prophet...this may sound funny to us but we have to realize that those people do not think like we do when it comes to religion, which is not wrong of course an is absolutely normal: our religions are different. Many of the Muslims in bulgaria were offended when those pictures were printed here-of course civilized people all over the world protest quietly but there will always be such people like those who destroy ambassies and stuff when being provoked in such cruel (in their opinion) way.


It's funny you bring this up, because I've heard that the same rule about visualising god and his son is in the bible or something. Forgive me if I'm incorrect! (I might be!)
Anyways, there are statues of Jesus all over Christian countries. I also heard/read in school YEARS ago that there was actually a war of some kind about it and people were tearing down and destroying those works of art for that reason. Mankind is never learning, is it? (That goes for both ways!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by farazrahman
im a muslim and im havent become violent or anything regarding those cartoons, nor have anyone i know personally. however, there was some violence in my city and im really ashamed about it. i mean, its sorta giving my people a bad name. i bet there are many people in the west who would relate violence with muslims. seriously, all muslims arent like this. its just the ones you see on TV breaking stuff, the ones who have completely missed the point of islam.

anyway, rant over, and back to independance exercises.

Faraz


Good to hear from you! That last remark was great!
And I don't consider it a rant, merely a good insight!

Like I said earlier, if I'd only believe the media I wouldn't even know certain muslims feel the way you do. It's always "muslims this" and "muslims that", only informing about muslims like they're all bad guys! Unfair. And I think it perhaps works both ways in this case. Those raging and terrorising muslims only see/read/hear about western people as if they're all greedy selfish devils maybe..
I think it's time we, humans worldwide, clear the skies from all prejudices and get the conversation started and trade opinions and ideas and views on each other!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fede
I think you're right about not all Muslims being like that, and I sure hope so. But. If that's indeed the case, why didn't we see huge muslim demonstrations against the terrorist acts in 2001? Why don't we hear that voice anywhere, except when asked directly?

When considering how great a burden it must be for moderate and peaceful muslims, to have their religion, often referred to as the "religion of peace", taken hostage by exstremists in this way - why don't we see more protests than is the case. Only now, after the cartoon incident are we beginning to hear (here in Denmark at least) the notion that "not all muslims are...". I'm delighted to hear it, but I sure wished it had come MUCH quicker and more voluntarily....I'm just curious as to why this is.


I'm not sure how to respond to this one...
On one hand I agree, I also wish I would have heard the "not all muslims are..." notion before, but on the other hand, wasn't there? And isn't thinking that "all muslims are" is a bit narrow-minded in the first place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzke
If u didn't hear something doesn't mean it wasn't said. Maybe u weren't listening.

Yzke is right.

Fede, perhaps in previous situations muslims weren't frowned upon as much as they are now by western people and is that the reason why they weren't telling us that they're not all "...".
(Got a fitting term there btw?). Then again, why is NOW the time? I've got a lot of thoughts about this right now but I'm getting dizzy from staring at this screen..

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummaman1
The entire WORLD had our sympathies on 12Sept01. I don't think anyone demonstrated, in the classic sense. The enitre world demonstrated goodwill, kindness, compassion, sympathy, condolences. The voice was one, and unanimous, possibly why we couldn't discern one voice from the next, figuratively. We were all one.

One of the many downfalls of media owned by, in this case, six multi-national corporations, is that they can control the message they want you to see, hear, and experience. The story that will make the most profit will be the one you see. News to educate and enlighten its masses, in the US AFAIK, most likely elsewhere, is almost non-existent.

Extremism, of any kind, is a burden on ALL those who do not think that way, who think in such extremes. Osama bin Laden is the worst kind of person, for what he did and what he's done, what he stands for, but the near equivalent in this country is Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps...these are the extremists that we also need to keep an eye on, in addition to ObL. Quite frankly, I'm more wary of the men I mentioned before than I am of ObL.


I'm not familiar with the american names you mentioned.

The thing you mention about multi-national corporations is one of the reason why I would never go to war for my country, as mentioned above. I won't go into further detail about that issue.

You're totally right that extremism of ANY kind is a burden.

"News to educate and enlighten its masses, in the US AFAIK, most likely elsewhere, is almost non-existent." True, but what does AFAIK mean?

And when you say "Quite frankly", are you speaking on my behalf? (J/K)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcannon
Man, I hope they don't get " Family guy " over there!


I do, it's funny!!


I'm thankful for all of your reactions people. Keep 'em coming!

Finally, xI'd like to add something I read in a newspaper this week. Muslims from England were polled and it came out that most of them would like to have specific laws for areas where mostly muslims live. That's a bad thing I believe. Anyways the most shocking news I read in the message was that 40+% of the people who were questioned actually sympathise with the bombers from the London attacks, but not many approve it.

Sorry for this massive post. I'm concerned and intrigued by the matter.
Also confused, because ... well.. cartoon leading to major DEATH... hmm..

Peace out!

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Old 02-21-2006, 07:53 PM   #13
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Basque separatists in Spain.
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:37 PM   #14
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Old 02-21-2006, 09:50 PM   #15
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