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-   -   Traditional Grip (http://www.virgildonati.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=45)

Jonny 06-15-2003 09:30 AM

Traditional Grip
 
Why Virgil's uses Traditional Grip if he think that's dificult to do somethings?
And what we can do better using the T. Grip?
Thanks

jimi 06-15-2003 10:02 AM

Virg just spent most of his life playing that way and doesn't think he should change. That's the way he plays.

People say there is a better feel on the snare with the T.grip but as usual, any person is going to do something better the way they learnt it first, because it's so difficult to unlearn habits.

This trad vs. matched grip debate is the same as the heels up vs. heels down debate ... solely preference.

kirk 06-15-2003 11:50 AM

After reading guys comments on matched vs. traditional for the last 20 years I find a few consistent comments. With traditional there are certain techniques employed where traditional allows for better touch and as was said before there tends to be better touch exhibited when speaking of snare technique. After reading comments from Virg and Tony Williams and Weckl and others they find the traditional grip allows for better feel much of the time, but with matched you can build up speed and power quicker and retain it easier. So it seems to be a give and take, but no doubt that what you become proficient with first you will stick to that. Virgil plays with such power and speed, precision and endurance with traditional that it is really AMAZING. I myself play with matched and when trying to do certain things with traditional it is very difficult to pull things off with speed and power and precision.
No doubt that Virg had to work his ASS off to build up the kind of proficiency he has with traditional.


Regards Kirk

alencore 07-10-2003 12:05 PM

yeah i agree.
Gregg Bissonette mentioned that he uses t-grip when playing swings or some soft strokes on the snares. I saw once Buddy Rich use match grip just to whack the drums really hard. Technical stuff like bouncing or buzzing stuff works fine for me in t-grip while m-grip for finger controls and drum whaling ala D. Grohl, LOL!

Steve Holmes 07-13-2003 12:02 AM

Theres cetain muscles used in trad grip that dont get used in matched.
ANother key difference is when just holding the stick with trad grip, the stick literally sits in your hand. Your dont have to hold it nessasarily. Plus the trad grip is very close (or should be) to what the hands natural relaxed postion is.
In matched grip you're holding the stick. Literally. As opposed to the stick sitting in your hand.
I've never seen match grip guys play the stuff the trad guys do (Colaiuta, Weckl, Donati).
The clear advantage to matched is power but with mics thats not all that needed really. I say play how you want, let the mics do the work for you. This of course assumes the sound guy knows a good drum sound (which is rare. Nice drum mix on the PX MI dvd BTW. Hi. I'de like to hear the TOMS AND CYMBALS PLEASE. HI.)

kirk 07-13-2003 08:55 AM

Have to agree when it comes to the point that you do not see matched grip guys playing the same kind of accents that you see Virgil, Vinnie,Weckl and other great traditional grip pulling off. It seems they are able to come up with some really creative and complex combos(fill-ins) and accents incorporating the snare and Hi-Hat that you would not really hear or see with matched grip players.

Regards Kirk

jimi 07-20-2003 04:45 PM

Actually this bobby jarzombek (.com) guy plays open handed and some of the hi-hat work is, well, different. i can't really explain it. but other than that there's no intricate ghost note patterns or anything like virg, vinnie etc. it is interesting to listen to his approach though all the same.

Tom24 07-21-2003 05:01 AM

Hi guys

it was a nice thing reading this thread because some of u guys, articulated some of the things, i just felt, and didn't know to say, because i changed some time ago to traditional grip, and it just feels more like home ;) and more close to the drums

though i ran into a lot of Problems, and still have some, it feels great, overall it sounds stupid, but since i've changed, it's more fun overall :D

hehe sounds like a commercial

rythmtroll 07-22-2003 08:59 AM

I LIKE PLAYING WITH THE DRUM STICKS ATTACHED TO A STICK HOLDER WHICH THEN ARE CONNECTED TO EACH ONE OF MY NUTS. I GET, .........MORE FEEL THIS WAY. MATCH GRIP ALL THE WAY SUKAS!!!

v1rotate 07-22-2003 09:05 AM

I mentioned it on one of the other threads but I found that you tend to drop the left shoulder when playing Traditional Grip, look at Virgil, both shoulders are the same height which is where they should be. Compare him to some of the the other Traditional Grip holders and you know what I mean. It's a conscious effort keep the shoulder up but better for your back and posture.

jimi 07-22-2003 02:10 PM

Hey Tom24, Welcome and i hope you enjoy this board!!

@v1rotate: while we are comparing the grips, i was jamming last month with hotrods and i got a bad blister on my fourth finger because it was resting on the edge of the handle bit and the rods. anyboby get that? i'll try putting some tape on the stick next time, maybe that'll work?

v1rotate 07-22-2003 11:46 PM

jimi,

It used to happen to me alot until found out that I was using the wrong technique/hold. Difficult to describe without pictures but when the stick makes contact with the snare, the forth finger comes away from the stick with the fingers in a parallel position to the ground and the knuckles on the thumb facing up. The wrong technique is when you hit the snare and your palm is facing the roof/sky/heavens etc.

I changed grip from Match to Traditional and had this problem initially because I was never taught Traditional Grip but after seeing lots of Traditional Grip players, I finally got the picture.

If you are still confused as to the correct position, I can take a photo and post on my website or where ever.

jimi 07-23-2003 02:10 AM

I get you v1rotate, i guess i hadn't noticed this sooner because it's not my palm position that i had wrong, just the 4th finger placement. I don't feel uncomfortable with the normal sticks but maybe the technique fault was magnified when i used the hotrods? I had actually spent a bit of time practising keeping my fingers (4th&5th) under the stick as i thought this was the quickest way to gain control of the stick after the rebound.
another question: when just using the fingers when striking a drum (rather than the wrist) is it best to use your index, index&middle or just middle finger to move the stick? i'm sure i've seen virg use the middle mostly.

STAVROPOULOS 07-25-2003 04:19 AM

HELLO TO ALL THE GREAT GUYS HERE!
WELL,THE ONLY THING I HAVE TO SAY IS THAT BOTH GRIPS ARE GOOD EITHER.I THINK THAT MATCHED IS MORE COMFORTABLE TO PLAY WITH ON A BIG SET UP BECAUSE YOUR HANDS CAN GO QUICKLY AND EASY WHEREVER YOU WANT.IN ADDITION THE CROSS STICKINGS ARE QUITE EASIER!BESIDES,VIRGIL DOESN'T HAVE A BIG SET UP.BUT IN A KIT LIKE VIRGIL'S,I THINK THAT BOTH GRIPS ARE COOL!OH!DAVE WECKL ALSO WAS CHANGING THE GRIPS IN ATHENS,WHILST PLAYING!I STILL BELIEVE THAT BOTH WAYS ARE COOL AND I AGREE THAT IT IS A MATTER OF PREFERENCE TOO!
BYE FOKES!

Me.2 07-25-2003 07:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jimi
I had actually spent a bit of time practising keeping my fingers (4th&5th) under the stick

Jimi....i would like to know why you have 5 fingers? I only have 4 and a thumb,.....what are the advantages if any? ;)

peter 07-25-2003 08:16 AM

Hi, guys.

Kirk, where and when did you see
that article on Tony, with his comment
on traditional? I was just wondering.

The reason being is that he indicated
to me that if traditional were the more
logical methodology, we should all be
holding both sticks that way.

Now, mind you, this was during the
1970's, when he was consumed with
power and flams. As he became older,
he went back to his original approach
often, which, like Virgil, was traditional.

It is evident that he mellowed into his
later years, becoming less rigid about
certain fixed ideas, some of which I
still find interesting.

kirk 07-25-2003 10:01 AM

To be honest with you Peter It was in college, which was 16 years ago(I was 20 then) and actually I was sitting in the room of my teacher at school and he had this article on Tony(the name or date eludes me) and he wanted me to check it out because he was a huge fan of Tony's and wanted me to get the inspiration if you no what I mean which I did by the way. I was at the same time turning my teacher on to Vinnie, quite funny. What I remember reading was not that Traditional was his favorite(or matched for that matter) but that certain aspects of traditional grip were better for him when playing certain things. If I do remember he mentioned matched as a grip where if you wanted volume and power it was somewhat easier to get. But he did emphasize what he liked about traditional.

I also remember at that time him being hardcore about playing multiple stickings without using rebound as a way of helping develop the stroke. He was emphatic that you should control and manipulate the entire stroke, using rebound was a joke to him. Well I really disagreed with him about that, I never thought that he had the most fluid or relaxed hands which might of been from this way of thinking that he had. I wonder if he ever thought different before then or afterwards. Actually Thomas Lang plays the same way, and I also do not think he has a stroke that sounds very relaxed it sounds controlled a little stiff to me. Now his hands are very clean and precise and consistent just stiff, using rebound allows for more fluidity and a stroke that sounds more relaxed. Just my opinion though. Tony was obviously pretty outspoken and well down right arrogant about his opinions years ago. But I do believe he did soften up some later on down the road.

Regards Kirk

peter 07-25-2003 12:25 PM

Well, that sounds like the Tony I knew
back then. I was 16-17, when I studied
with him. He was brutal. It's just as you
say, he promoted "no bounce" as the
only way. When I told him, I wanted to
continue playing traditional, he had me
squeeze the stick between my left-hand
middle and ring-fingers and play with it
that way, until it cracked open and bled,
which he enjoyed, I think. I did not enjoy
these lessons, though they provided for
interesting directions, later on.

One thing I have to say about his approach
is that it allowed for the most notable ride
I have ever heard in jazz, evident in his
1960's recording, with Miles and others. To
this day, I have never heard anyone ride
like that. He was something else.

He leaves a legacy that is rich.

By the way, I now played matched all the
time and have converted from German to
French grip, using some bounce. I was
convinced by Steve Gadd and Billy Cobham
that the rigidity of Tony on that subject may
not have been the best for applications in
other musical genres.

kirk 07-25-2003 02:58 PM

That is a very interesting point Peter, when i think about it. If you are playing traditional and have to play by Tony's method where everything is forced it would not be as beneficial to play traditional because really you are hurting yourself and making the whole stroke harder to pull off. To me you take the feel out of the equation in large part and if so go ahead and play matched, because the benefit of feel, intricacy and fluidity is cut out to a great degree. And you are right Tony's ride was Awesome, so darn creative, musical and powerful.

Regards Kirk

peter 07-25-2003 05:03 PM

You know, Kirk, since I have switched
to left-hand lead, on the right-handed
kit, I have noticed that my touch on the
snare is as good, if not better than when
I used played right-handed, with my left
hand on the snare.

A couple of years ago, I lost the use of my
right arm for a while. It was terrible. I
could not even hold up a glass of OJ. At
the time, Billy Cobham talked me into
switching to left-handed lead, saying I
had nothing to lose and everything to
gain. I tell you, it's opened a new world
for me. I can't ever go back now.

Listen to this:

www.thediametrixletter.com/eleuthera7.mp3

Tell me what you think. This is from Billy
Cobham's play-along CD called "Conundrum",
with me over the track. He wrote the music
for drummers to learn and play. It's different
than what most of the guys here like but
you might appreciate it.

I think that players that begin traditional
have a tough time switching and vice-versa.
Let me tell you that it's tough leading with
your left hand instead of the right BUT the
eccentricity of it all makes for a positive,
creative experience.

kirk 07-25-2003 09:02 PM

So far I listened to about half of it. Hard with kids running around. Different influences going on, Jazz, tribal, Latin, some bluesy influence, good variety of colors, nice feel and good time throughout what I have listened to so far. Would be interesting with some real gritty guitar thrown in the mix. Will try to listen to the rest later.

Regards Kirk

jimi 07-27-2003 02:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Me.2
Jimi....i would like to know why you have 5 fingers? I only have 4 and a thumb,.....what are the advantages if any? ;)


Well i also have 3 arms and 3 legs which really helps for polyrhythms and the triple bass!!:D

Me.2 07-27-2003 02:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jimi
Well i also have 3 arms and 3 legs which really helps for polyrhythms and the triple bass!!:D


Is it also true you charge Triple scale for sessions too?:D

TUDW 08-03-2003 02:34 AM

You do know that the people who say tradditional is better than match grip and etc, havent finished about learning drums (no offence). See, im 15, and at school, people ask, "are you a better player than him/her?" etc. I dont have time to explain to them so i think up something stupid, because there is no better! I mean, thats like saying that Virgil is Better than Dave because Virgil can play faster and better rock. Thats bloody stupid! No ones going to be better out of both of them cause there two totally different styles, feel etc. Same with the argument, i mean people have there own style and if that means they play Tradditional for comfort and style, or the other way around, so be it! Dave said on TUDW2002 DVD, ".....we are all different....."

Me.2 08-03-2003 05:57 AM

People say things for many reasons TUDW. Its sometimes THEIR belief that something is better..... until someone comes along and disproves the belief that they've held for so long.

I think their was an artical i read by a marching drummer who stated that in the Trad grip only 4 muscles were used compared to something like 15 for matched. If you looked at it from the point of view of energy expenditure.....4 muscles is quite a saving.

Both styles suit different people better...just as music styles suit some better.....while some do both/all. The ONLY thing thats important is that the grip you use lets you express yourself to the max.......If it aint broke dont fix it.


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