weightlifting!

[swedendrummer]

what about weightlifting? Good or bad when you are a drummer? i feel really comfortable with it...i run sometimes to!

[alencore]

from what i experience as well as some former body builders turn drummers it's a no no. I was doing some basic push ups for a week then once i started drumming i noticed my hands felt slow, heavy and tight. I can't even do those fancy crossovers sticking at speed. So I quit my workout routine and after a week tnk god my hands looseness came back.

But cardio-vascular work-outs such as running ,swimming or cycling are really good for building overall stamina in drumming afaic. Or just play along those fast tempo songs on some sturdy drum practice pads and just whale like crazy. Hehe, a good way to save the lifespan of your drums.

[Adam]

See I think it's a good thing. However your target shouldn't be to "bulk up", rather to strengthen your muscles. The reason guys like Virgil and Weckl look so fit is because they're so toned, and with that come a bit of muscle bulk here and there. Do this if you want to work out:
Work the ______ by doing a couple of sets of light wieghts, and then do one set of heavy, and then another set of light weights and move on.

[candyman]

I have good results with just light weights and also playing sports such as basketball. Also there is a special weight device called an ankle isolator that strengthens your shins which helps with bass drum playing.

[alencore]

yeah light muscular work outs suits us drummers just fine as well as those ankle wieght device which i did used a lot during those heavy days wood shedding double bass frenzy.

[SCREEN NAME]

Yes,if geared towards drumming,I am a Powerlifter but every other exercise(other than BP and DL)is geared towards makeing me more fit for drumming I recently experimented with a moeller stroke type of bicep forearm curl and it seems like if i work at it more it will help my power generated from forearm and hopefully make me quicker,of course you don't want to be this monster holding toothpicks

[The_Setite]

I find bodyweight calisthenics work really well for me, alongside good uld running. Sprinting uphill i find particularly effective

[IronCobraMan]

working out every other day is good.... but avoid excercises that are a strain on ur wrists or ankles...if ur doing curls or tricep extentions , make sure ur wrists are strait as an arrow... do not put pressure on ur wrists watever u do...this will have negative effects on ur drumming....and anyways , trainers will tell.... dont use momentum or shortcuts to lift the weight...if its too heavy , bring it down....that way ur actually targeting the muscle u wanna work out...


sadly i havent worked out in over 2 months...but i have not seen any difference in my drumming , cuz the 2 are totally unrelated....its like saying , hey if i play alot of thumb wrestling , will it make me a better bassist? yknow... but working out effects u on a psychological level in drumming...when ur in good shape , u just have more self esteem and confidence, and this definitly comes out in ur playing....

[Johnny]

Weightlifting is a benefit. I think drummers should weight train and also should not be afraid of lifting heavy weights. They will not slow you down.

[KarnEvil]

As far as I see, weightlifting can only benefit a drummer expecially for the legs, just as long as you don't overdo it.

[DerNeue]

I think weighttraining can benefit your whole life, if done properly. Check out "Brawn" by Stuart McRobert. It is gives a very good and healthy approach on weightraining. All exercises that are hazardous in any way are to be avoided.

[Johnny]

That's a good book. Its approach will keep you from overtraining which would affect the results of your practicing.

[Markdude465]

Virg is crazily muscular. How do you think he manages to shred those sky-toms to bits like he does, hmm?

[DerNeue]

How he does manage that? What is that for a question? He practiced with the toms a long time. That is it! Or not?

[grandpascorpion]

Virg is heavily into yoga I believe.

[Johnny]

I've read that in an interview somewhere.

I like yoga. Especially with some blueberries mixed in. :)

[IronCobraMan]

yup , excercise which includes alot of stretching (yoga , martial arts) will benefit ur drumming alot more than weight lifting....

[alencore]

i concur...and pu-ssy eating is good as well, haha! jk jk jk!!!

[DerNeue]

I do not think that weightlifting alone would be good in any way. But if done in connection with the proper stretching and also some cardiovascular activity like running, biking etc. added onto that would make you all around more fit!
In my opinion Brawn gives good examples for that.
And also Yoga is good. It is a way of stretching combined with a mental relaxation approach.
I think anybody should do a bit of weighttraining and some cardiovascular stuff and stretching in addition to that will create a balanced body that is able to affort more in any way and let it be drumming also!!!
As long as you do not go into extremes it should be no problem!

Here is an example for a routine that is in the style of Stuart McRobert:
Do 2 to 3 sets of each exercise:
Squats alternated with Deadlifts
Benchpress or Dips
pull ups or cable rowing
standing dumbell/barbell press
crunch style exercise
calf raise

If you do this twice a week with no training to failure in any set and heightening the weight every month about 2 to 5 pounds and also do the exercises in perfect form you should make a better body in about a few months. I can not tell you how much you will change but there will be a difference to the better if you eat and rest well between these workouts.
Add a bit of stretching after each workout and also do running, cycling or swimming twice a week and you are done with that!

[Aaron]

Its strange reading everyone's opinion about wieght training and bodybuilding for drummers. I find that my drumming suffers when I don't lift for awile. Lifting weights has developed my "quick-twitch" muscle fibers in my wrists and now I find that using a wrist-finger technique (Moeller Method) I am able to drum for long periods. My single stroke roll has improved drastically.

[DavidPartay]

I use a skipping rope and I work on endurance actually on the drumkit.

The one time I attempted to use weights it wroughted my speed.

[bateria]

yup , excercise which includes alot of stretching (yoga , martial arts) will benefit ur drumming alot more than weight lifting....

When's the last time you had to do the splits while drumming?

Lifting weights has only made me feel stronger and faster. I can blaze up flights and flights of stairs like never before, and I'm only pumped up and ready for more at the top. I don't get fatigued in my back and my arms lifting heavy things. I take more powerful strides, and can run faster and longer. My knee that used to bother me feels like new. I could go on and on. Point is, done correctly, a resistance training routine can do wonders for your health and fitness.

[MaltBuddow3]

I've recently put down the weights and started "body weight" exercises... it's the stuff the military has been doing for years, and it dates back a really long ways. You just use your body as resistance, ie: push-ups. Everything I've read says that it's better for your overall health b/c you're exercises multiple muscle groups all at once, with weights you're focusing on one group. Since you practically never use one group alone, weightlifting has been criticized to produce "nonfunctional" strength, whereas body weight exercise produces functional strength.

Anyways, after just a few weeks of this stuff I feel great, much better than I did lifting weights, and the results have come on a lot quicker!

[roxz]

Weightlifting will give you more strength and stamina and all that sort off things.
But it won't give you a better technique with drumming. You may last longer with bad technique cause you are stronger cause of the weightlifting.

If you want to improve your drumming technique than drum till your limbs fall off! :D

A better healthier body is usefull for a drummer. But it doesnt mean your technique is.
Better technique for drumming means practice more and more.

[bateria]

I've recently put down the weights and started "body weight" exercises... it's the stuff the military has been doing for years, and it dates back a really long ways. You just use your body as resistance, ie: push-ups. Everything I've read says that it's better for your overall health b/c you're exercises multiple muscle groups all at once, with weights you're focusing on one group. Since you practically never use one group alone, weightlifting has been criticized to produce "nonfunctional" strength, whereas body weight exercise produces functional strength.

Anyways, after just a few weeks of this stuff I feel great, much better than I did lifting weights, and the results have come on a lot quicker!

Yeah, calisthenics are great. However, weightlifting does not always mean isolating muscle groups. Squats, deadlifts, rows, and bench press are four great examples of compound exercises that work multiple groups. I also wouldn't go so far as saying that lifting doesn't give you functional strength. The point about isolating muscle groups is to really stimulate them individually to get them to grow, and then put them together to have a massive increase in strength. Make your triceps stronger, and I guarantee that your bench press will go up.

[Trencherman]

Well said bateria. Another compound favourite is the chin-up, which is just a killer for your arms and back. :) On the flipside of the coin, compound exercises use much more energy than exercises that isolate individual muscle groups, which is why I have taken the bench press out of my routine. I couldn't achieve a single one-armed push-up about half a year ago when I was pumping away at the barbell so I began to target my triceps, my delts and my pecs individually for a massive increase in strength. I can now do at least five consecutive one-armers on each arm, but it's still tough! :D T

[SCREEN NAME]

tryed that dreaded 1 hande roll lately whats that your tricep tightens up,faster Db?OH your calf and whole leg hurt>Weights fatigue muscle fatser so stick with high reps and you be more relaxed when u play and that's when the speed will come,Mangini does it just look at HIM to sound Cliche' YOU KNOW YOU GROW THE FASTER YOU'LL GO! LOL

[C.J.]

My back tends to fatigue a lot these times, causing me to stop and rest. What would you guys recomend to strengthen my back?

So far, I do push-ups, sit-ups, and skipping rope to stay fit.

Me.

[roxz]

My back tends to fatigue a lot these times, causing me to stop and rest. What would you guys recomend to strengthen my back?

So far, I do push-ups, sit-ups, and skipping rope to stay fit.

Me.


Lay down on your stomach, stretch your arms. At the point where your hands are now,place a beer-can or milkshake whatever and go from left to the right over the object.. The higher the object the harder but not too high (max 10 inches)

[DavidPartay]

When I used to get back problems I would do stomach crunches and leg lifts. Fixed the problems within a couple of weeks.

I've really gotta get back into the crunches and leg lifts though, I've been getting lazy!

[bateria]

My back tends to fatigue a lot these times, causing me to stop and rest. What would you guys recomend to strengthen my back?

So far, I do push-ups, sit-ups, and skipping rope to stay fit.

Me.

http://www.stumptuous.com/baddl.html

The deadlift is great for your back, but be SURE to start out light and use good form. Only move up the weight when you really feel ready. This is not a lift to push yourself on when you're starting out. Also, check out hyperextensions (a nice safe back exercise) and squats.

[The_Setite]

Yeah, calisthenics are great. However, weightlifting does not always mean isolating muscle groups. Squats, deadlifts, rows, and bench press are four great examples of compound exercises that work multiple groups. I also wouldn't go so far as saying that lifting doesn't give you functional strength. The point about isolating muscle groups is to really stimulate them individually to get them to grow, and then put them together to have a massive increase in strength. Make your triceps stronger, and I guarantee that your bench press will go up.

Before I go on, id like to qualify this by saying that this is just my opinion and is drawn from my experiences training. Weights indeed do work for some people.This is my experience. Take what you will from it... Read on......

I made the switch from weights to bodyweight calisthenics and i have never looked back .I trained intensively for 18 months with heavy weightlifting to increase muscle size (benching 300 lbs, squatting 450 at the end etc.). The biggest problem with weightlifting is that the only reason to do it is to get huge muscles (otherwise why not calisthenics?) and the only way to acheive this is through overloading to stimulate type 2 fibre growth. Overloading is all well and good for muscles but kills tendons and cartilage and ligaments. Ever wondered why so many bodybuilders and pro wrestlers (the WWE types who juice) develop knee and lower back problems. Not to mention serious problems in the shoulder actuators? Overloading. Also when do you stop increasing weight??? The bodybuilder type physiques in the magazines are not acheiveable without steroids or human growth hormone. The human body simply does not do that. The mags will tell you its genetics. Its not. All competition bodybuilders are taking some kind of enhancer.

In terms of drumming, curling and benching caused problems in my wrists and shoulders. The muscle was big and strong, the tendons, ligaments and cartilage were not. Aches and pains in the joints were commonplace and a result of the overloading technique being employed. This happens more often than you think and is a common problem amongst heavy weightlifters.

Also remember, calisthenics dont cost any money and can be done anywhere. So can running. There is a fitness industry that wants to sell you products. Ever wondered why some of theseweightlifting routines and diets are so technically in depth??? So you have to keep up with the "latest products".

Your body works as one unit. Train it as one unit and you will see far faster reaults without risk of injury or muscular imbalance (too many situps and not enough back work will give you a bad back as the muscles in the stomach pull you slightly forwards, bench pressing can cause similar problems in the upper spine and shoulderd) Why do a dumbell curl to work the bicep when you can do a closed grip pull up and work bicep, lats, abs, upper thigh. Why isolate abs in a crunch when you can also work the upper thigh and lower back doing full incline situps? Bech to work the chest of pushup to work chest, abs, tricep, neck, quads as well as the core balancing muscles. If these are too easy do them one handed. On your fingers. Etc.

I have had more results from doing intensive calisthenics in terms of pure strength and sustained power than I ever had from weights with no chance of injury. My muscles are harder and more powerful and bigger than when I was weight lifting. The body has a built in safety mechanism that prevents total muscle failure (which is actually a neural short circuit in the brain) thus preventing chances of tearing muscle. Simply put your body will stop you before you hurt yourself. When using weights this is not the case as the body is dealing with an external object (hope that makes sense).
Look at gymnasts. They rarely use any kind of weight, its all bodywork and the male gymnasts are shredded. Pure muscle. They are also flexible and have good cardio. Boxers, sprinters and shoot wrestlers also tend to do more bodywork than weights and they are usually very well built individuals. Which is Virgil more like??? A gymnast or a hulking bodybuilder?

Ultimately, if you are not looking to be a bodybuilder then you dont need weights,just your bodyweight.

In addition to being a drummer I am also a wrestler and judo black belt. Im speaking from experience.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant but this stuff is important to drummers health and general injury aviodiness.

[DavidPartay]

The_Setite - I agree with everything you've said, at least in regards to avoiding the use of external weights, etc. I'm more interested in cardio fitness than anything and doing weights is going to do nothing for me in that regard, yet I can do 50 reps with a skipping rope and feel the burn over my whole body.

[bateria]

Setite, I don't know why you think I want to look like a bodybuilder, but I'm not talking about squatting 450 pounds and getting huge...weight training does not have to be extreme like you're making it out to be. It can be a healthy addition to your physical activity regimen, in moderation. Nobody said that they want to look like a pro wrestler. We're musicians here.

[bateria]

yet I can do 50 reps with a skipping rope and feel the burn over my whole body.

I can stick my arms out and flap them like wings and eventually I'll feel a burn too...that doesn't mean it's doing me any good. The burn is just lactic acid buildup from a lack of enough oxygen.

[The_Setite]

Setite, I don't know why you think I want to look like a bodybuilder, but I'm not talking about squatting 450 pounds and getting huge...weight training does not have to be extreme like you're making it out to be. It can be a healthy addition to your physical activity regimen, in moderation. Nobody said that they want to look like a pro wrestler. We're musicians here.

I didnt say you did. I said that unless you do want to get huge,weight training is redundant because your own body provides more than enough resistance. Sorry if this isnt clear. Calisthenics provides the best of both worlds, providing power, endurance and speed, without the risk of joint damage. Even light wieght lifting can caure repetitive strain injury. Calisthenics cannot.

[C.J.]

I don't have access to weights and other... I need Calisthenics for stregthening my back...

Thanks for the advice friends!

Me.

[MaltBuddow3]

well said Setite! I should just shut up from now on and let you do the talkin'. Just don't forget push ups on the knuckles... \m/

to any skeptic of "calisthenics vs. weights", google the stuff and read up. I would recommend trying some dive bomber push ups as well. You'll feel like a wuss if you settle for the bench press after that.
A great example of how well calisthenics works is the military. There are no weight lifting programs in BASIC for a reason. For even further justification, look at Special Forces soldiers. The only weights you'll find there are 70 lbs of gear strapped to their backs while doing calisthenics. Those guys are some of the most fit humans you'll find. It works "." :)

[MaltBuddow3]

and jump rope is great! I talked to a former college track guy once, told him I was running 2 or 3 miles 3 times a week for cardio. He said I was wasting my time. His proposal was 1 minute of jumping rope as fast as I could without messing up or slowing down, and 1 minute rest. Do it five times, and in ten minutes you're out the door for work.

[bateria]

I didnt say you did. I said that unless you do want to get huge,weight training is redundant because your own body provides more than enough resistance. Sorry if this isnt clear. Calisthenics provides the best of both worlds, providing power, endurance and speed, without the risk of joint damage. Even light wieght lifting can caure repetitive strain injury. Calisthenics cannot.

Ok, I see what you're saying (sorry, it was late and I was tired). I try to include calisthenics wherever possible in my routine. The only problem is that I haven't been able to emulate the big lifts like the squat and deadlift with calisthenics. What can I do with my body weight that will give me the leg strength and power of weight training with squats and deads?

[The_Setite]

Ok, I see what you're saying. I try to include calisthenics wherever possible in my routine. The only problem is that I haven't been able to emulate the big lifts like the squat and deadlift with calisthenics. What can I do with my body weight that will give me the leg strength and power of weight training with squats and deads?

Deep knee bends or hindu squats (keep legs straight and bend all the way and come up onto tip toes. Works the front of the quads and the calfs quite intenstivey) .
Also how many squats can you do? If its less than three hundred in a row you have work to do (I can only manage 150 at the mo so im nowhere near).

If you can do loads in a row then....Try squatting one legged. It takes a little practice but the results are well worth it.

If this is too easy do jump squats. These are hardcore.

One legged jump squats?

If you can do all of the above then you are superfit and I have no place advising you!!!! ;p

Try handstand pushups. Killer workout for shoulders and upper back Simply put feet up against a wall and do pushups vertically.

Get to one hundred in a row.....do em one handed!

My wookout routine if it helps.

Day one 5 mins biking warm up
Push ups
Sit ups
Free Squats
15 mins stretching (dynamic and isometric, mostly leg workl for me cos they are pretty inflexible naturally.)
20 mins intense cycling/running (i prefer cycling)
In my opinion you should stretch after you have done some exercise not before because the muscle is warmed up and ready to work. Lot of evidence to suggest that stretching before exercise has little benefit. Better to do some light cardio to get the blood flowing.

Day 2
Warm up
Pull ups
Handstand pushups
Dips
Stretching
Cardio

Hope this helps you.
I hope I dont come across preachy, but I think this stuff is important for us all especially as drummers and having suffered numerous injuries cos of training (which interfered with my drumming) I dont want anyone else to suffer the same things.

[The_Setite]

and jump rope is great! I talked to a former college track guy once, told him I was running 2 or 3 miles 3 times a week for cardio. He said I was wasting my time. His proposal was 1 minute of jumping rope as fast as I could without messing up or slowing down, and 1 minute rest. Do it five times, and in ten minutes you're out the door for work.


Exactly.....thats why boxers do it. Its pretty much the most efficient cardio workout. All i gotta do is get good at it.

[The_Setite]

Ps I train three to four days a week the above routine is meant to be alternated.

[bateria]

Deep knee bends or hindu squats (keep legs straight and bend all the way and come up onto tip toes. Works the front of the quads and the calfs quite intenstivey) .
Also how many squats can you do? If its less than three hundred in a row you have work to do (I can only manage 150 at the mo so im nowhere near).

If you can do loads in a row then....Try squatting one legged. It takes a little practice but the results are well worth it.

If this is too easy do jump squats. These are hardcore.

One legged jump squats?

If you can do all of the above then you are superfit and I have no place advising you!!!! ;p

Try handstand pushups. Killer workout for shoulders and upper back Simply put feet up against a wall and do pushups vertically.

Get to one hundred in a row.....do em one handed!

My wookout routine if it helps.

Day one 5 mins biking warm up
Push ups
Sit ups
Free Squats
15 mins stretching (dynamic and isometric, mostly leg workl for me cos they are pretty inflexible naturally.)
20 mins intense cycling/running (i prefer cycling)
In my opinion you should stretch after you have done some exercise not before because the muscle is warmed up and ready to work. Lot of evidence to suggest that stretching before exercise has little benefit. Better to do some light cardio to get the blood flowing.

Day 2
Warm up
Pull ups
Handstand pushups
Dips
Stretching
Cardio

Hope this helps you.
I hope I dont come across preachy, but I think this stuff is important for us all especially as drummers and having suffered numerous injuries cos of training (which interfered with my drumming) I dont want anyone else to suffer the same things.


Good stuff, I'll check that out. Do you know anything that works the hamstrings? I don't want to have a quad/ham imbalance, as my brother had problems with that.

[DerNeue]

@The Setite:
Some of the points you mention are right but I have to give you some other information above that. I do think that calistenics are great if you are not having access to barbells, dumbells and power rack.
But I think even weight trainig can be as healthy as cals. And also you can hurt yourself doing cals if done unproperly. If you would place you hands too narrow or too wide in pushups it could result in wrist problems or shoulder injuries. But the same can happen with benchpresses. The movement is basically the same but in push ups you have to tense the whole body to stay tight. Nevertheless both can be harmful.
You said you were benchpressing 300 pounds. That is a great ahievement after 18 months of training. That great that it becomes clear why you experienced shoulder problems. When someone reaches his bodyweight in the benchpress it becomes vital to train the rotator cuffs. Look up the web for exercises. If you trained your rotator cuffs you could have avoided this problem.
Another point is you mentioning bodybuilders having knee problems from squatting to much. This is most likely the result of a wrong execution of the squat in most gyms.
Stand straight and then push your "butt" or pelvis to the rear. As a result your knees will bend and your shins stay almost right angled to the floor. Also watch your foot flaring. Your toes should point outward. When your kness are over you toes your will have a safe stand. And also never use a board under your heels to elavate them. You will not need
that when you use correct form and have properly moveable achilles tendons.

Please check out Stuart McRobert's the insiders tell all handbook on weighttraining technique. This book explains how to stay away from pain by using natures given pathways.

And also try to remember that reaching 300 on the bench after 18 months is way more stressful for your tendons and ligaments than your muscles. I would have suggested to do cycling the intensity. So perhaps doing 4 weeks with 75% of your top previous weight and then again raising the weight slightly over 5 weeks always keeping perhaps 10 repetitions.

But it is okay to stay fight with cals. As long as you avoid extremes in positioning and perfomance and always striving for balance in the musculature. Do not only do push ups. Also do pull ups to also develop the back, rear shoulders, biceps and forearms!

And I agree with you that bb-magazines show drug using people most of the time. But 90 % of the entire population do not have the genetics to reach that goals. Plus many of the pro bodybuilders have to use drugs although they have superior genetics because they train to much and to failure.
I do not want to look like a pro. But I would like someday weigh about 85 to 90 kg with my height of 186 cm in order to look not only tall but also be as big that it looks well proportioned. At the moment I weigh 75 kg and think that it is really normal but I want to be bigger.

I also think that avoiding failure and training with perfect form in the basic movements is the best. I avoid isolation exercises. Compound exercises train more muscles at the same time and they give you more coordination for "useable" power. I avoid momentum in my training. The movement has to be smooth. I have to be in control over the weight in every part of the movement.

That is opinion to yours.

[Trencherman]

Even light wieght lifting can caure repetitive strain injury. Calisthenics cannot.

Let's get one thing straight and dispel this myth: muscles don't know what they are lifting; they just contract when the brain tells them to. Repetitive strain injury is so-called because it is a result of repetitive strain, irrespective of what that strain is, and the same goes for other injuries -- the strain is resistance, which is how muscles are stimulated. Calisthenics can ruin your ligaments and tendons just as easily as weights can. Will you hurt your shoulder if you try to do a one-armed push up withuot sufficient strength or preparation? You probably will. Might you damage a tendon or a ligament if you push your triceps too hard? Yes, you might. How many gymnasts do you see wearing support bandages round an arm or shoulder? And what caused their injury: a barbell loaded with iron or their own bodyweight? Calisthenics are good, but they can cause harm every bit as easily as any other significant resistance. T

[C.J.]

What skipping rope workouts would you guys have to propose?

[bateria]

Well, I'll comment on my new calisthenics experience...I just did a leg workout last night with hindu squats and one legged squats. I pushed myself to the max, and did sets of both exercises for a long time until my legs were shaking and I could barely make it up the stairs. I liked the fact that I could go all out and not have to worry too much about injuring myself...I know on squats and deads that when you get tired you have to pay attention to your form because if you let it slip just a little, you can mess yourself up. Anyway, definitely a good workout, but I just didn't feel it working my legs as much and as deeply as squats and deads do. It was like squatting the bar a million times to get tired instead of doing 4 sets of 5-8 with heavy weight. Today, I am a little sore and tired, but my legs don't feel as shocked and stimulated as they do after an intense squatting workout. That's just my first impression anyway.

[The_Setite]

@The Setite:
Some of the points you mention are right but I have to give you some other information above that. I do think that calistenics are great if you are not having access to barbells, dumbells and power rack.
But I think even weight trainig can be as healthy as cals. And also you can hurt yourself doing cals if done unproperly. If you would place you hands too narrow or too wide in pushups it could result in wrist problems or shoulder injuries. But the same can happen with benchpresses. The movement is basically the same but in push ups you have to tense the whole body to stay tight. Nevertheless both can be harmful.
You said you were benchpressing 300 pounds. That is a great ahievement after 18 months of training. That great that it becomes clear why you experienced shoulder problems. When someone reaches his bodyweight in the benchpress it becomes vital to train the rotator cuffs. Look up the web for exercises. If you trained your rotator cuffs you could have avoided this problem.
Another point is you mentioning bodybuilders having knee problems from squatting to much. This is most likely the result of a wrong execution of the squat in most gyms.
Stand straight and then push your "butt" or pelvis to the rear. As a result your knees will bend and your shins stay almost right angled to the floor. Also watch your foot flaring. Your toes should point outward. When your kness are over you toes your will have a safe stand. And also never use a board under your heels to elavate them. You will not need
that when you use correct form and have properly moveable achilles tendons.

Please check out Stuart McRobert's the insiders tell all handbook on weighttraining technique. This book explains how to stay away from pain by using natures given pathways.

And also try to remember that reaching 300 on the bench after 18 months is way more stressful for your tendons and ligaments than your muscles. I would have suggested to do cycling the intensity. So perhaps doing 4 weeks with 75% of your top previous weight and then again raising the weight slightly over 5 weeks always keeping perhaps 10 repetitions.

But it is okay to stay fight with cals. As long as you avoid extremes in positioning and perfomance and always striving for balance in the musculature. Do not only do push ups. Also do pull ups to also develop the back, rear shoulders, biceps and forearms!

And I agree with you that bb-magazines show drug using people most of the time. But 90 % of the entire population do not have the genetics to reach that goals. Plus many of the pro bodybuilders have to use drugs although they have superior genetics because they train to much and to failure.
I do not want to look like a pro. But I would like someday weigh about 85 to 90 kg with my height of 186 cm in order to look not only tall but also be as big that it looks well proportioned. At the moment I weigh 75 kg and think that it is really normal but I want to be bigger.

I also think that avoiding failure and training with perfect form in the basic movements is the best. I avoid isolation exercises. Compound exercises train more muscles at the same time and they give you more coordination for "useable" power. I avoid momentum in my training. The movement has to be smooth. I have to be in control over the weight in every part of the movement.

That is opinion to yours.

If you are not looking to pile on masses of weight and only like compound exercises, why use weights? Cals will provide more than adequate resistance for you and will add on quite a bit in terms of raw muscle mass.
As for your point on execution, yes and no. Most injuries from heavy weight lifting come from overloading which is the basic premise of any mass building routine. I doubt pro bodybuilders have incorrect form. Stress on the joint is the problem.
On the rotator cuffs point. Possibly, but do you really think a muscle group that small can ever be trained to hold that much weight?? Its like balancing a brick on the little finger. It just wont do it. Partial reps (i later discovered) are the key to really heavy weight lifting. But thus only trains muscle in a short range of motion. You get size but limited strength in the whole range of movement.
The point of weight lifting is to gain muscle mass. If you are not using heavy weights and increasing muscle stress to increase type 2 fibre growth then why bother with weights.

[The_Setite]

Let's get one thing straight and dispel this myth: muscles don't know what they are lifting; they just contract when the brain tells them to. Repetitive strain injury is so-called because it is a result of repetitive strain, irrespective of what that strain is, and the same goes for other injuries -- the strain is resistance, which is how muscles are stimulated. Calisthenics can ruin your ligaments and tendons just as easily as weights can. Will you hurt your shoulder if you try to do a one-armed push up withuot sufficient strength or preparation? You probably will. Might you damage a tendon or a ligament if you push your triceps too hard? Yes, you might. How many gymnasts do you see wearing support bandages round an arm or shoulder? And what caused their injury: a barbell loaded with iron or their own bodyweight? Calisthenics are good, but they can cause harm every bit as easily as any other significant resistance. T

This im afraid is totally wrong. Its nothing to do with the muscle, muscles dont think. Muscles dont know but the brain does. Every human body has an inbuilt safety mechanism to stop it injuring itself. This is why you cant break your own finger for example. This system is messed up by the use of external weight (this is why people strain themselves lifting boxes but never from standing up). The brain is perfectly developed to deal with the stresses of gravity, not so well developed to deal with the external stresses of lifting a heavy weight.
Try to do a one armed push up. If you dont have sufficient strength, nothing will happen. You will probably fall on your face. No tendon damage. No ligaments pulled.
Now try picking up a 200lb bar. Or a 400 lb bar if you are strong. Warm up first. Feel the strain? This is OVERLOADING. This is what does the damage. There is no overloading in cals cos the body is incapable of overloading itself.
As for the gymnast point....falling fast and catching a bar wrong?? Landing badly?? The velocity would cause massive OVERLOAD. OVERLOAD is what causes the damage. Cals involves no overloading.

Calisthenics are good, but they can cause harm every bit as easily as any other significant resistance.

As easily as say a 300 lb benchpress??? This is false. Yes injuries can occur but only from incorrect form. This is not true in heavy weightlifting (and as i said before light weights are pointless), as the OVERLOADING causes the damage.

[The_Setite]

Well, I'll comment on my new calisthenics experience...I just did a leg workout last night with hindu squats and one legged squats. I pushed myself to the max, and did sets of both exercises for a long time until my legs were shaking and I could barely make it up the stairs. I liked the fact that I could go all out and not have to worry too much about injuring myself...I know on squats and deads that when you get tired you have to pay attention to your form because if you let it slip just a little, you can mess yourself up. Anyway, definitely a good workout, but I just didn't feel it working my legs as much and as deeply as squats and deads do. It was like squatting the bar a million times to get tired instead of doing 4 sets of 5-8 with heavy weight. Today, I am a little sore and tired, but my legs don't feel as shocked and stimulated as they do after an intense squatting workout. That's just my first impression anyway.

It works slightly larger groups of muscle fibers than heavy weights. You dont feel shocked as you say cos the muscle is responding differently and not attempting to enlarge itself as much as it would normally. I know what you mean. When I first tried it it didnt feel right, but I have persevered and im used to it now. My squat total has not dropped. I tried weights again just to see and since starting cals, my squat is still at 450 (3 sets of ten) and my curl has increased by 4 kilos. Whatever you decide stay safe dude.

[Trencherman]

Yes injuries can occur but only from incorrect form.

NONSENSE!!! You have a half-baked notion of the medical theory that the brain is adept at dealing with the body's own weight in the context of gravity. The brain is indeed accustomed to dealing with such things, but this does not preclude injury by any means. People strain muscles standing up, walking, running, stretching, even going to the toilet, yet it's impossible to strain a muscle by attempting a push up-with one arm? Hmmm. T

[The_Setite]

NONSENSE!!! You have a half-baked notion of the medical theory that the brain is adept at dealing with the body's own weight in the context of gravity. The brain is indeed accustomed to dealing with such things, but this does not preclude injury by any means. People strain muscles standing up, walking, running, stretching, even going to the toilet, yet it's impossible to strain a muscle by attempting a push up-with one arm? Hmmm. T


You are taking this totally out of context. Of course muscles can be strained from everyday activities, but mostly in unusual circumstances. It certainly isnt likely or even normal to strain yourself walking down the street. If you think that in a healthy adult human standing up is likely to cause muscle strain then you had better stay sitting down.
Point is that its not the movement but the position of the movement. Like when you throw your back out by twisting round fast in shock. Unusual circumstance. Running strains are usually caused by landing at a funny angle and are usually in the ankle (tendons and ligaments).

Ill put this question to you.
Rate out of ten the activity most likely to cause muscle/tendon injury in a healthy adult male aged between 18 and 50. It wont take long.

1 = Least likely
10= most likely.

1) Running
2) Push ups (cold)
3) Push ups (warm)
4) Walking
5) Deadlifting a 200lb barbell (cold)
6) Deadlifting a 200lb barbell (warm)
7) Walking
8) Standing up

Hopefully you get my point now.
Cals are hundreds of times less likely to injure you than weights and if done with correct warm ups and cool down the chances are almost zero. Its basic physics.

More weight=more strain= more risk.

Simple.

Look if you like ill put up a list of sources that corroborate with what im saying. In the meantime look up a book called the Human Mind by Robert Winston. It explains a lot of this pretty clearly. Ill even put up a chapter and line listing if you like. Remember im not spouting my own theories. This is stuff I have learned from others. There are very good reasons the Army dont use weights in. their training routine. One of them is injury risks. Im not some armchair scientist. I design mind maps and life strategies for corporates and schools as part of my living (see previous posts) Its part of my profession to have a clear idea of how the brain functions.

[mac_drummer]

I know a kid who played drums in a jam band and he weight lifted and he got really into weight lifting in the off season when the other kids had school marhcing band going on and when he went back to drumming he had gotten bigger and he couldn't move as well around the kit so I dont weight lift.

[DerNeue]

Because I do not gain from cals. Weightlifing works for me. I increase the load every third week or later only a few pounds. As a result I had much less problems with injuries because of a securing layer of muscles.
I gained about 2 pounds with cals and then I tried to do many reps which increases mainly your power endurance. I also tried very slow cals. I think low range movements are not appropriate because for me that is cheating. You are using momentum to generate force. But the power to push up should come from the muscles.
In cals you will someday reach a point where you can not get bigger because the load is not increasing.
Of course there are people out there that look great by only doing cals. Like Marc Dacascos for example. But most of these people have propably better genetics than most others. Some people like me are to skinny and large to look great with cals. People like me have to do a bit more. The load has to increase or the body will not respond very long to the training.
So if you do weighttraining it should be done the way I told you (or something that is similar to that one) or perhaps after the ILB approach.
It wants a trainee to have periods of mass building as well as periods of power endurance and maximum strength training as well as short breaks. Perhaps this approach is even better because it gives you well all around muscles.

[Trencherman]

The setite,

I'm not thinking of cals and weight training in the comparitive sense; all I'm saying is that cals can strain your muscles by overloading, which is why I totally rejected your assertions about the brain's built-in safety mechanisms.

Of course muscles can be strained from everyday activities, but mostly in unusual circumstances.

This just reinforces my point. Standing up, walking, running etc. are all intrinsic physiological functions that the body is designed to handle with ease, but body weight training is not. Calisthenics are what one might call an "unusual circumstance" -- for instance, holding your upper body weight on one arm, putting an awful lot of strain on your pecs, delts and triceps is not natural. When I first attempted a one-armed push up I hurt my oblique and my delts, and that was not because of incorrect form as you say; it was because of insufficient strength and overloading, which you said is impossible. My body was too heavy for one arm to lift, and I strained my muscles trying to lift it.

Look if you like ill put up a list of sources that corroborate with what im saying. In the meantime look up a book called the Human Mind by Robert Winston.

I don't disagree with everything you say; I just reject the part about overloading being impossible with calisthenics. I'd very much like to see Prof. Winston saying that we can't overload our own bodies with calisthenics.

There are very good reasons the Army dont use weights in. their training routine. One of them is injury risks. Im not some armchair scientist. I design mind maps and life strategies for corporates and schools as part of my living (see previous posts) Its part of my profession to have a clear idea of how the brain functions.

That's fine, and I respect that. I agree that there is less of an injury risk with calisthenics than there is with free weights, but you won't get a scrawny lad who has just joined the army trying to do push-ups with one arm. Why not: is it because he can't do it, or because he might strain himself trying to do it? T

[bateria]

I know a kid who played drums in a jam band and he weight lifted and he got really into weight lifting in the off season when the other kids had school marhcing band going on and when he went back to drumming he had gotten bigger and he couldn't move as well around the kit so I dont weight lift.

Maybe he didn't practice...look at Dennis Chambers--big guy, but he BURNS the kit up.

[bateria]

It works slightly larger groups of muscle fibers than heavy weights. You dont feel shocked as you say cos the muscle is responding differently and not attempting to enlarge itself as much as it would normally. I know what you mean. When I first tried it it didnt feel right, but I have persevered and im used to it now. My squat total has not dropped. I tried weights again just to see and since starting cals, my squat is still at 450 (3 sets of ten) and my curl has increased by 4 kilos. Whatever you decide stay safe dude.

I'm definitely going to keep going with the cals (I'm too intrigued not to see for myself). The thing is, I do want to put on a few more pounds. I'm skinny (6'2", 170 pounds), and would like to be a nice lean 180-185 (absolutely no more than 190) with 10-15 more pounds of functional muscle. I don't want to be huge (6'2" 185 is not at all huge) and have to maintain a huge mass of muscle, I just want to have a bit more functional strength and mass.

[Wankmaster Joe]

If you want to work the muscles that are usually used for pedals just step on a step with about less than half your foot on the stairs and the other half in the air then let your body go down(shin muscle is being exersized) then get on your toes( calf muscle) you might want to hold on to the wall or something cause you might fall doing this exercise so just keep going up and down after about 30 or 40 you can feel the muscles that are being used. Of course I don't know if this helps speed but I think it does help endurance which is needed too.
:)

[DerNeue]

You are right that is the muscle. But it is not the only one. Also the shin muscles have to be worked. I do foot exercises on the floor without the pedals 20 minutes everyday. Things like paradiddles, singles and doubles. Most of the time heel down. That forces my feet to produce the movements by themselves because they get no help from springs and the rebound.
That makes my feet much more stable and endurant because they could probably do double bass stuff on the carpet.