Heel/Toe for Virgil Donati Double Bass Beats

[steve]

Ive seen videos of people playing the heel/toe technique,but only straight 16ths. I was wondering if you can get the heel/toe technique to sound similar to the slide technique (similar to what virgil donati does) and being able to mix up 16th note single stroke double bass beats with 32nd double (like virgil donati and other drummers)

I was also wondering if you could get them as clean as other drummers (Thomas lang, Virgil Donati) who use the slide technique for doubles on a double pedal.

Thanks in Advanced

[newbeat]

In short, the answers to all your questions: yes. The heel toe technique works just as well (or even better sometimes, IMO) as the sliding technique if you practice it enough. The only issue is changing to and from the heel up position to going heel-toe, as opposed to just staying heel up for sliding, which is why guys like mangini do sliding- you don't have to change positions. I think you could overcome that with practice though.

[Lucius]

Thomas didnt practice his doubles while sliding his foot, he used heel down...

[steve]

He may have practiced them heel down, but he usually plays his doubles heel up, and slides them a bit, like Virgil.

[Lucius]

Every time I have heard him talk about foot technique, he stresses to you shouldnt slide... Ah well, I do see a little slide in there, I think if I stand next to him while he plays 'em, I would be able to answer! :)

[MaltBuddow3]

I've never seen him slide his feet(Lang). Does he in the new video?

[Xen-]

Malt,

Thomas uses alot of different foot techniques in his video, he slides a little and sometimes uses a side-to-side motion. Still, he does them with such control it sounds perfect.

[steve]

I've never seen him slide his feet(Lang). Does he in the new video?

I never ment that he slides completely like some drummers, I ment he slides a bit and his heels wobble a bit (this is what he does on the video), similar technique to virgil.

P.S.Most of you guys probabley know more about Virgils and Langs foot techniques, so im here to learn :)

[MaltBuddow3]

Lars Ulrich... he's the reason why we all play drums.

[D.W.A.]

yea.lang also says he uses no bounce.............yea right

[peter]

LOL

Well, the best thing to do is see these drummers
up close and rationalize well everything that they
say. I hope that I get a chance to see him tomor-
rrow, here in Chicago. I have seen film of him and
I believe he's a fine drummer.

As for working on the kicks, it's not a bad idea to
practice everything both ways (heel down and up).
You will gain better control, I believe, if you do this.

Today, I sat at the pads and matched everything
that I did with my hands, with the kicks. I did a
batch of singles to doubles to triples, into parad-
ddles and then into paradiddle-diddles. After I did
these for only 15 minutes, I felt the gap between
my hands and feet close even more.

Make sure that when you are high speeds that
you are getting the higher leg elevations.

As for the notion that you can go 220 plus,
without bouncing the beaters, just remember
what your hands are doing and if it's true that
you can do it down there, you can do it up
here and vice-versa.

Really... Don't waste your time thinking too
much about what people are doing. Remember
that your body is different and that it's a battle
to know what YOU'RE doing, much less what
they are doing!

Of course, seek to understand the great players
like Virgil and Mike. Everyone has something to
tell us, if we'd just listen.

[mr sonicfeet]

He may have practiced them heel down, but he usually plays his doubles heel up, and slides them a bit, like Virgil.



From what I noticed from watching the dvd. Thomas doesn't even slide he pivots his heel from outside to inside. The front of his feet doesn't move up and down the footboard at all. At slower speeds which would be really fast for all of us. he doesn't even pivot! :confused:

[Lad.]

I can do neither one of these techniques.
Heel toe just plain hurts, and I don't slide at all.
Although I have discovered that i can do moderate Paraddidles with my bass feet on my pedal.

[peter]

You have to experiment.

I suggest moving your foot
down the footboard, trigger-
doubles from the lower pos-
ition and learning to control
those. You could even rest
your heels on the floor.

I'm talking about 1/3rd the
distance up from the bottom.

[Lad.]

Ehh, sounds kinda hard.
I'd have to pop my ankle outta joint in order to set my heel on the floor while playing the pedals the way I do.

[Nightkast13]

I've been playing double bass for a while but i still havent got the heel-toe concept.How would go about trying it

[msnauta08]

Hi Guy & gals,

anyways the heel & toe really works wonders so work hard we can all do it..
just work & work

[msnauta08]

I've been playing double bass for a while but i still havent got the heel-toe concept.How would go about trying it

hey try working with the hi-hat first trust me..

[DavidPartay]

Heel-toe is almost impossible if you're wearing shoes and don't have a longboard style pedal. Don't even considering trying it on Eliminators or Iron Cobras, because I don't even have big feet, and it is too difficult.

This is just my opinion, but I think it's a fair one. If you want to do heel-toe, then get an Axis longboard pedal.

[Drumcanman]

Heel toe is the easiest wat to do doubles it just takes practice.
The WFD has a free preview at www.worldsfastestdrummer.com and click on the FREE preview from my dvd.
Most people get the concept just from watching the clip.
It does take a lot more time and dedication to achieve the kind of tapping doubles
Like VIRGIL!!! But fopr those of you who don't have the time heel toe is much easier.
I have found that when I teach I overexagerrate the motion of heel toe or sliding up the footboard of course the faster you go the less the motion.
Hope this helps Good luck and God Bless!
Tim Waterson

[proto78]

From reading posts and threads, I am experimenting this heel-toe technique. It's very cool, and makes a triplet sound very solid!

[Markdude465]

Tim Waterson

As in... you are Tim Waterson, or...?

[cjcdrums]

Yessireebob, that's the real Tim Waterson. Check out his other post. He's graced us all with his presence.

[Markdude465]

Yessireebob, that's the real Tim Waterson. Check out his other post. He's graced us all with his presence.


... :confused: :eek:

wwwwwwwwWWWWOW!!1 :D

Man, if only I were a drumgod, I'd do that all the time... I'd get a real kick out of seeing peoples' reactions (i.e.:"wwwwwwwwWWWWOW!!1 :D")

[cjcdrums]

I know, right?

[IronCobraMan]

im all about watersons toe down technique with doubles...its working great so far...

[rkettner]

Yes, the Heel-Toe Technique (http://www.heeltoetechnique.com) can be used to play all sorts of patterns. Just as you can play double strokes with your hands... it can be used to play quick doubles with both feet. Right now I'm working on going through all rudiments with my feet... and using the heel-toe technique for fast doubles is an absolute must IMO.

[rkettner]

Heel-toe is almost impossible if you're wearing shoes and don't have a longboard style pedal. Don't even considering trying it on Eliminators or Iron Cobras, because I don't even have big feet, and it is too difficult.

This is just my opinion, but I think it's a fair one. If you want to do heel-toe, then get an Axis longboard pedal.

I agree with some of what you said. It is definately harder to learn with shoes... but once you have the technique mastered it can be played on virtually any pedal with or without shoes (even heavy boots, if your into that). It can also be played with any shoe size... even size 30 if there was such a thing. You just have to modify the motion slightly (no, your heel doesn't have to be on the footboard). You simply use the floor behind your pedal as a stopper... and follow through with the second toe hit after your heel stops the first stroke. Did that make any sense? :D

[Spit]

I use the heel/toe for a but of time and yes it does help to get doubles (as well to play cool constant 8th, 16th or triplet with one pedale...like JoJo). But as i always say: try to play everythings everyways it is possible (slides, double, matched grip, traditionnal grip, abidexity, etc). Johnny Rabb said it already "learn everything you can as a drummer but don't forget de basic".

One hint I can say that really helped be to build all my left side is to change my set up to play lefty. After a while, you'll see a great difference...Just playing lefty and learning all the grooves your able to play right-handed will make them sronger and more fluid.

And yes I do think like rkettner that it's possible to learn it if you have big feet. It's heel/toe but your heel doesn't have to hit the pedalboard, try to use the middle of your foot...make your toe fly :D

[Sillyman]

Hey the heel/toe technique is a proven technique for me to give me the skills to do whatever i want with my feet i've been playing to this method for 3 years after 6 years of total struggle it really works just practice practice and you'll get really powerful results .And yes of course you can go from straight 16ths to 32nd notes at really ridiculous speeds that you don't imagine it works on single and multiple pedals too. Man i really can do what the hell comes into my imagination.

[sandstrom]

lang uses heel down for not accented notes and heel up for accents

[jonathan eva]

does anybody know where i can see a video clip of these foot techniques?
i dont quite know what u guys mean by sliding ur feet

[rkettner]

does anybody know where i can see a video clip of these foot techniques?
i dont quite know what u guys mean by sliding ur feet

My original heel toe technique (www.heeltoetechnique.com) drum instructional video is on Jareds website at www.heeltoetechnique.com. It's cheaper than a private lesson, but if you can just learn by reading through this thread... that'll save you a few bucks.

[Seaborn]

My original heel toe technique (www.heeltoetechnique.com) drum instructional video is on Jareds website at www.heeltoetechnique.com. It's cheaper than a private lesson, but if you can just learn by reading through this thread... that'll save you a few bucks.

lol !!!!
Very funny presentation. :D

[jameshorn0]

In regard as to whether Thomas Lang slides his feet when doing doubles, I went to a masterclass with him in Birmingham, UK (the creative control tour) and I could see his feet easily (because I was about 1m away and he was using entirely electronic trigger kicks, the ones where the beater is turned downwards) and I didnt see him do any sliding.
Just thought Id share that with the public (woo! I can actually comment on something!)

James

[Drumcanman]

Ive seen videos of people playing the heel/toe technique,but only straight 16ths. I was wondering if you can get the heel/toe technique to sound similar to the slide technique (similar to what virgil donati does) and being able to mix up 16th note single stroke double bass beats with 32nd double (like virgil donati and other drummers)

I was also wondering if you could get them as clean as other drummers (Thomas lang, Virgil Donati) who use the slide technique for doubles on a double pedal.

Thanks in Advanced
Heel toe is the EASIEST way to do doubles IMHO as I have been statring since 2000 on the web.LOL
Yes you can do Virgil style patterns but you have to remember it is much harder to accent the 2nd note Takes a Lot of practice.
i demonstrated the Drum speak groove type groove to VIRGIL doing Heel toe as I could not do it tappping and he seemed to like it.
I usually do the full heel toe motion when mixing singles and doubles.

Just to set the record straight. THERE IS NOTHING ORIGINAL ABOUT HEEL AND TOE!
YES I am the one who became known for demonstrating this technique :eek: but I was shown this technique in the early 80 s by a drummer who learned it from his Grandpa and so on and so .....
Heel and toe came from Tap dancing and has been used by drummers since way before I was born.LOL
I just took into the spedd realm by changing the motion from heel toe to Just Toe down Heel strokes only.
The FREE video clip that the WFD put up has been helpful in drummers learning this technique so I will keep posting it.
www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm
Hope this helps just keep watching the video and you will get it.
Happy New year and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[ismaeldrums]

hello, the best drummer the world is virgil donati

[Matthias]

Malt,

Thomas uses alot of different foot techniques in his video, he slides a little and sometimes uses a side-to-side motion. Still, he does them with such control it sounds perfect.

I know this thread is oooooold, but still.. yes, Lang's foot technique is excellent, at least it looks excellent.
I don't know if it's me, but for my ears, he sounds far from perfect!! His technique may be great, his working ethic too, but a lot of times it sounds whacky, uneven, sloppy and powerless! I'm sorry to be so harsh, and I know and confess I can't do it any better - in fact I'm probably much much worse - but this has to be said once! Compared to Virgil (although I know it's somewhat unfair a comparison...) he is nowhere!

Doesn't anyone think so too? I believe Lang's hands are better than his feet by far, despite the fact he preaches ambidexterity between hands and feet, and in the video he does play everything on snare etc, and kicks.

[KarnEvil]

IMO virgil and lang are miles apart - although maybe I shouldn't make such a radical comparison since I've only seen a few Lang solos compared to virgil's but comparing what I've seen, lang lacks the power, musicality, and "fire" of a player like virgil or vinnie

[slopsbop]

sorry dudes but lang is the man. I dont think its fair to compare virgil to lang because both play driffrent styles. to say lang lacks musicality compared to virgil is unfair because virg plays more heavier prog music.

[Maxizen]

Does anyone knows something about "rocking motion" techique for the foots? i will thank every answer.
I'd like to said that i'm working on my feets the same way that i play with my hands (exercises), and with the same feel that i have develoved, always remember to stay RELAXED at all times, beacouse tension kills your perfomance, with time, if you practice in a relaxed fashion, with your feets, you can brake all barriers and make all your limbs work at 100% at all times. ok that`s all, seeyaa all!

[Drumcanman]

I know this thread is oooooold, but still.. yes, Lang's foot technique is excellent, at least it looks excellent.
I don't know if it's me, but for my ears, he sounds far from perfect!! His technique may be great, his working ethic too, but a lot of times it sounds whacky, uneven, sloppy and powerless! I'm sorry to be so harsh, and I know and confess I can't do it any better - in fact I'm probably much much worse - but this has to be said once! Compared to Virgil (although I know it's somewhat unfair a comparison...) he is nowhere!

Doesn't anyone think so too? I believe Lang's hands are better than his feet by far, despite the fact he preaches ambidexterity between hands and feet, and in the video he does play everything on snare etc, and kicks.

Of course Thomas's hands are better than his feet.LOL
Aren't most drummers hands better?

The fact that you hear mistakes just means Thomas like everyone is else is HUMAN> :D
Don't compare Virgil and Thomas .....apples and oranges they both are Great drummers.
I prefer VIRGIL'S overall playing but that is for ME.
Virgil is the closest I have seen to balanced hands and feet but EVEN VIRGIL's hands are better than his feet.
I have seen Virgil do stuff with his hands we may not ever be able to do with our feet.LOL
Makes sense you can't do Everything the same with both.Too many varaibles you can do with your hands.
keep the comments civil.
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[roxz]

There are no secrets in drumming

[Wankmaster Joe]

There are no secrets in drumming

Yeah just things most drummers dont know about lol.

[filus]

A few days ago I tried to get into heel/toe. I basically play using both heel down and heel up technique, it depends on accents and speed.

However when I tried this new tech, i noticed it was easier for me to do doubles with heel/toe on my left foot, while the right was "harder". I dont know why this happens.

i'll let u know whats going on today practice..

[Maxizen]

There are no secrets in drumming
Does anybody know something about that "rocking motion" technique?

[filus]

Does anybody know something about that "rocking motion" technique?

It's easier to see a foot in action, than to read some words here.

Basically this technique consists in doing the first stroke with your toe (heel up) in the middle (about) of the board, the in doing the second one sliding your foot up on the board, with the heel going a little bit to the middle of your legs..sorry for my english..

[Maxizen]

It's easier to see a foot in action, than to read some words here.

Basically this technique consists in doing the first stroke with your toe (heel up) in the middle (about) of the board, the in doing the second one sliding your foot up on the board, with the heel going a little bit to the middle of your legs..sorry for my english..

Thank you, can you tell me a good video to see this technique in action? thanks again

[Maxizen]

[QUOTE=Maxizen]Thank you, i was asking about this technique beacouse i'm using it and i didn`t know that rocking motion was her name, again thanks and other thing:
i`m working on my feets , relaxation, speed and power, but i`m doing it with my hit hat instead of a double bass pedal, i wanted to know if is this a good thing or if i`m just wasting time (the fact is that i`m having good response on my left foot, i was talking about him at the begining of the line sorry), thanks again for share and if there is something i can help, let me know!!!!!

[josesoto14]

the hihat pedal is a bit harder than the bassdrum pedal, so it will feel a bit harder and the return motion of the hihat is not the same, cuz it has no spring tension (get what i mean), but keep practicing like that and you'll find some cool new sounds in your hats.

My question is: I've been practicing in my p-2002c, and I want to know which are the adjustments that donati uses in his double bass pedal, meaning, spring tension, footboard position, etc, cuz i want to practice his technique of using doubles strokes.

[cjcdrums]

[QUOTE=Maxizen]Thank you, i was asking about this technique beacouse i'm using it and i didn`t know that rocking motion was her name, again thanks and other thing:
i`m working on my feets , relaxation, speed and power, but i`m doing it with my hit hat instead of a double bass pedal, i wanted to know if is this a good thing or if i`m just wasting time (the fact is that i`m having good response on my left foot, i was talking about him at the begining of the line sorry), thanks again for share and if there is something i can help, let me know!!!!!

Working on control is always a good thing, but some things you work on will help your playing more than others.

If you want to play double bass, you need to have a double bass pedal. Practicing on your hi-hat will strengthen your left foot but you can't substitute that feel for something else.

Imagine practicing hand control with a drumstick in your right hand and a pencil in your left- how good would you expect to get?

[Maxizen]

[QUOTE=Maxizen]

Working on control is always a good thing, but some things you work on will help your playing more than others.

If you want to play double bass, you need to have a double bass pedal. Practicing on your hi-hat will strengthen your left foot but you can't substitute that feel for something else.

Imagine practicing hand control with a drumstick in your right hand and a pencil in your left- how good would you expect to get?


Hi cj, and thanks for the advice (sorry if my english is not very good!jeje). By the time that i had wrote that post i didn`t have a double pedal. My luck changed in november of last year. I`got a p-1002 powershifter with single chain and belt drive. In this period of time (almost a year in days!) i`d used it with both single and belt. Today i`m on the chains again. The fact is that i`ve got the chance to have "creative control" t. Lang first dvd, and last month i`ve got "creative coord.and advanced..", both videos openned my head to a new way of practice and also helped me to developed or apply exercises in a different way. And of course, the lots of drummers that are sharing a lot in this web site.
I`m working a lot in a series of exercises that are in the book "master studies" (joe morello). The section called "the stone killer". I`m playing it in unisons hands and feet at the same time (time saver manner jaja)and both ways, heel up and heel down. I had a tremendous growth in all four limbs. Anyway, there was a big change playing the hit hat and now a slave db pedal, jeje, thanks again.

[huglacat]

the hihat pedal is a bit harder than the bassdrum pedal, so it will feel a bit harder and the return motion of the hihat is not the same, cuz it has no spring tension (get what i mean), but keep practicing like that and you'll find some cool new sounds in your hats.

My question is: I've been practicing in my p-2002c, and I want to know which are the adjustments that donati uses in his double bass pedal, meaning, spring tension, footboard position, etc, cuz i want to practice his technique of using doubles strokes.

Out of the many posts, this one attract my attention.
I believe it is possible for anyone to participate.
Excellent ! I like it very much.
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