feet pivoting in bass drum doubles: bad?

[newbeat]

I have been teaching myself double stroke rolls with my feet, and I have built up a kind of swiveling pivot motion (from the inside-out) to snap the doubles off- nothing drastic, but it's definitely there. Is this bad technique that will become sloppy and slow me down at high speeds, or is it alright? My feet are too big for heel-toe, and I tried training my feet to just bounce the pedal without moving but they keep on wanting to do their little pivot thing. Thanks for the advice!

[peter]

Have you tried working on the lower
part of the footboard, with your the
balls of your feet? Check out the
threads on double-strokes. You
might even be able to keep your
heel on the floor or close to it,
while you do this. Check it out.

[MaltBuddow3]

I dont really see what's wrong with it as long as it's not too drastic, but check out the March Modern Drummer (2004) for Lang's take on it... he says it's a no no.

[Lucius]

Theres a march 2004 Modern Drummer out already?! ;) :D

[newbeat]

"but check out the March Modern Drummer (2004) for Lang's take on it... he says it's a no no."

Sorry to be a bother, but could you summarize in a sentence or two why he says it's bad? I'd like to know sooner rather than later what may be wrong with my technique in case I can't get a hold of a copy. Thanks!

[MaltBuddow3]

sure... Thomas apparently had stickler teachers all his life and they told him that the only way to play was heel down and traditional grip (I dont think he started heel up til after his two years at the conservatory). He believes in 100% control, no leg shaking or swiveling or anything. I think in another interview he said something about not playing press rolls b/c they arent controlled. Anyways... his deal is you put your foot on the pedal and they're both (foot and pedal) in perfect alignment and your toe never moves... no sliding on the pedal. Basically it's just a perfect technique issue for him. That's what I think I remember anyway... the first article I read was in 2002, but the foot positioning thing is right cause I just read it.

[newbeat]

Wow, that's kind of strange...I wonder what he thinks about hand double strokes then, do they need to be all wrist and no bounce for him? Hehe. Thanks for posting that. I can't see how you could do doubles at high speeds by using a completely controlled method with the leg...I think you'd need some sort of snapping mechanism to bounce the pedal, be it heel-toe, popping the foot fowards or back, sliding, or in my case, doing a slight pivot. But then again, I'm no Lang. ;)

[mtgarrett]

Well, what do I know - but I say who really cares what your feet look like if you're able to execute what you're intending to play. Right/Wrong, Cheating/Not Cheating.....who cares, let's play music! :)
Jacob Armen comes to mind with this topic. If any of you don't know who he is, he's a drum prodigy that was able to play when he was 10 hours old or something like that. He was on Carson and a lot of those shows back in the late 80s. Anyway, I saw this kid play (I guess he's about 20 or 21 now) at a small club. I sat right in front of him about 6 feet from his kit. One thing that really struck me was his "poor" grip while holding the sticks - I kept shaking my head thinking how in the hell he could possibly play holding the sticks the way he does......well, I would never be the one to go up and tell him that he's gripping the sticks wrong! :D

[alencore]

i agree with mtgarrett. athough only come to mind is simply how much energy is being use on such techniques. Those of Lang seems so demanding in terms of energy use. i prefer a technique that is good enough as well as proficient enough to do it long enough without drainig your energy in the long run.

[Lucius]

With Thomas' doubles on his hands he does what Dave Weckl explains in his back to basics vid, accenting the second stroke, and he says you should start real slow and make that second stroke really really strong, he has dents on his rims on his snare apparantly from doing that!

[Geronimo]

how can I see the threads on double bass? When I search with the keywords double bass I get nothing.

What do most people on this board do for doubles?

[Vansoth]

A swivel motion for doubles is extremely common and pretty much natural, as long as you can play cleanly, its unimportant. Lang's feet swivel massively when he plays doubles; I'm not sure why he says not to swivel when he does the same motion himself.

[DerNeue]

The important thing is that the swiveling motion should not become the main motion to produce doubles.
If you find the sweet spot on the pedal, which is about halfway down on the footboard, you will feel it. Try to stay in the same spot when playing because that way the leverage does not change and so you have the best control over your dynamic. The doubes will sound cleaner then.
I also think sliding and twisting are bad habits but not if they happen because you mainly want to stay in the same spot. Look at Virgil's feet when he is doing doubles. They almost stay in the same place but they also tend to twist a little.

When you snap the ankle twice to produce doubles there is no twist or slide. This snapping motion is the one that is important!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3J0tI2S7A6U&search=virgil%20donati

Look at his feet in the beginning. He is just snapping! Do the same and with practice you will no who big the movement has to be. It is a process of eliminating the unecessary movements!

[Drumcanman]

I dont really see what's wrong with it as long as it's not too drastic, but check out the March Modern Drummer (2004) for Lang's take on it... he says it's a no no.

I dony know why Thomas would say not to swivel?
I have watched him up CLOSE and he also swivels at higher tempos.
Some drummers can control the swivel and othere do it just a highere tempos.
here is NO right or wrong way to play for singles doubles or whatever.
Good luck and God Bless
Tim