Allan Holdsworth Secrets anyone?

[STAVROPOULOS]

Hey guys,has anyone here transcribed any songs or song from the Secrets album?I had tried Spokes,but there's a twisted rhythm at 1:53,that i can't figure out and i have doubts if i have transcribed the big tutti correctly!Vinnie stuff,i know,but has anyone tried something?I would greatly appreciate it!!

[percusski]

try over at houseofdrumming - a lot of Vinnie fans on there. I'd be interested to see what you have done so far though.
That album and especially Vinnie's drumming is a landmark!

[STAVROPOULOS]

Thanks percusski man!I will get photos(in a couple of hours) of my unfinished transcription and will upload them here.I will be waiting corrections from all of the friends here,thanks!

[Matthias]

cool, I'd like to see that, too:)

[STAVROPOULOS]

Guys here are the photos,taken with a cell phone!!Sorry,i do not have a camera,if u look at them patiently,u will see what i write!:(
The drum legend is standard,so no worries about that,i apologise for the inconvenience,i'll be glad if u will figure out what i write,the quality is not good,but i hope u will make sense!
Thanks!

[STAVROPOULOS]

Guys the second picture does not want to be uploaded,an error page appears all the time DAMN IT!I will try later!

[Matthias]

is that from the beginning? difficult to read indeed...:(! do you have a scanner:D? or a computer program like Sibelius or Finale?
You did write the hihat in the intro fill, didn't you? Couldn't see that at first, but I think I found it now...:)

[percusski]

It's hard to read, the opening fill sounds like quintuplets to me, phrasing the right hand notes of RLLRL around the kit. When played up to speed this implys a sort of shuffle feel that you have gone for.

[STAVROPOULOS]

Matthias,yes,it's written and it's a splashing hi hat with the foot,if u'll take a look under the line u will see the ''o'' 's that indicate the opening of the hi hat.

Haha,sorry man,i know my method is primitive,but unfortunately, i don't have a scanner,or any other program like Sibelius.I will try to find a way to post them until the end of the week,so that they can be read easily,because my friggin' pc doesn't want to upload the second page,and the second photo is better!!:D

Yeah,it's from the beginning,i think this page is 100%correct.

[STAVROPOULOS]

percusski,thanks for the tip to go to houseofdrumming,it's a fantastic page,too,as this one is.Thanks!I registered,but i will have my account active later,so i'll ask the guys there too,when the account is ok.

Now,i believe that sextuplets are right,because the tempo is not that fast to play the thirty second ghost notes as i have written them and the quintuplets are slow in that specific tempo.And Vinnie does this thing many times,u know,filling things up sometimes,like thirty second note triplets,etc.To realise the pulse of the sextuplets listen to the fill,tap eighths with your hand and you will see that u will be tapping along to where the second accent falls,i.e. on the upbeat.It's that shuffle feel u told us before,tah-tah-tah-tah-tah-tah-...and like a half-time one.

[cheezruff]

I have transcriptions of the first minute(?) or so of each tune posted on my website. (Couldn't upload anything to the Virg posts). I did these about 15 years ago on a slow-mo cassete deck (Marantz Superscope). I agonized endlessly about the intro to Spokes, and finally figured out it was quintuplets in a hemiola rhythm, notice the Q-note rest lets the lick start on beat 2. Enjoy! See my homepage: www.lewisrainbow.com

[STAVROPOULOS]

mr Rainbow i think u have to reconsider Spokes.For me it is nowhere near quintuplets,because this grouping is slow at this tempo,look at my post above.Anyway,i will try to post them in a better quality,so that u can see them clearly!
Thanks

[Matthias]

Stav, I think your point doesn't make too much sense, because quintuplets are almost as fast as sextuplets, it's just 1 stroke less per grouping!

Although, guys, I just checked it out by myself by slowing Spokes down to 50% with Amazing Slowdowner, and my conclusion is the following:

Although Vinnie is one of FEW freaks who uses quintuplets on a regular basis:D, I believe those are actually sextuplets, BUT with a five note sticking!! I myself use that sometimes as well, and the sound of it sounds familiar to me.
Does that sound reasonable to you as well?

[Matthias]

(Couldn't upload anything to the Virg posts).
Maybe you only used the quick reply function? If so, just check out the full reply mode!

[STAVROPOULOS]

Yes,Matthias,but do not forget that quintuplets are almost as SLOW as sixteenths,LOL!It is plain obvious that it is sextuplets,with the toms providing the shuffle feel,and the in-between partial of the triplet being thirty second note ghost notes,check it out with your headphones,close your eyes and you will hear the ghost notes rolling.
I checked it out today,i played the intro the way i have written it and told you and man,it is the same,if u want i can video tape it in my cell and post it,but i don't believe it will be audible.But let's not stand to this point,for me it is 100% correct,when played it sounds the same,i have tried to capture every detail,but what concerns me is if someone can or has transcribed the rhythm i mentioned in my first post,damn it's difficult,LOL!

[Matthias]

I hear you! I do agree with you as far as the note values go, but your reason isn't correct! The toms don't provide a shuffle feel, they provide the 5-note-group-feel!! Believe you ME, I don't need headphones and closed eyes, I've listened to it slowing it down to HALF the tempo!!
As I said, IMO he just plays those 5-note-groupings (which imply quintuplets) as sextuplets.

[cheezruff]

Someone(s) not noticing that quintuplets in Hemiola spacing (dotted eighths) yields 4 groups of 5 = 20 notes per 3 beats. Actual sextuplets is 18 notes per 3 beats. The speed of these two rates are close enough to confuse many an ear. My transcription is correct. The quintuplets are occurring every dotted eighth, and the flam on '4' of the 2nd measure allows another 3 beats for the quintuplets to smoothly fit into 6 beats total. If this explanation has not cleared it up for you, then I don't know what else to tell you.

[Matthias]

Ok, got it, looking at your transcription and listening to the slowed down version, I think you could be right:).

[STAVROPOULOS]

Ok,Matthias and Lewis,i hope i didn't offend you,i just trust my ear as you do!Anyway,Lewis probably is right,besides you guys have the programs AND your ears,so i'll temporarilly buy the things you say,as far as the intro fill's concerned.The other transcription does have inaccuracies,but can u please help with that beat i mentioned????Comparing the transcriptions is meaningless!Mr Rainbow will always play it like he has written,and i will always play it like i have.Except from the intro fill,LOL!

[Matthias]

No problem:). But have you ever checked out that famous "5-clave" thing? RlRll or LrLrr? Guys like Gavin Harrison play that all the time. Once you've absorbed that, you'll recognize it immediately when someone plays it (as a polyrhythmic phrase in 4/4 i.e., I mean).
I'll have to check out that beat you meant sometime.
By the way, Amazing Slow Downer is "only" 50$, if you have that money, it's quite worth it IMO, especially if you like transcribing drum stuff!

http://www.ronimusic.com/

[STAVROPOULOS]

Hmm,no man,i haven't checked this sticking that much,but:RRLRL,and using that creating various groupings of notes,etc.Next sticking practiced in depth will be this one,i just take them one by one and u know,try to put them in the back of my brain,LOL,the possibilities are endless!

Rick Gratton has quintuplets in polyrhythmic structures in the Licks section of his book but were easy to play.
Fact'sthat like Lewis said,my ear got deceived from what i was listening to the track during that drum break.:D

Anyway,i'll have in mind the program u mentioned,but if u find time try checking the big tutti part too,it's right before the beat.The next stuff is of the same difficulty as the first parts of the song.Thanks Matthias!

[percusski]

Nice work cheez!
The 1 and 4 of the 5 note grouping creates that in between shuffle feel I was referring to.
I always thought he moved the 'ghosting' left hand up onto the toms for the last grouping of 5 before the flam.

[Clintuplet]

Cheezruff,
I humbly bow!! You are the man. I have searched high and low to find out this lick and was even convinced that it was just a blushda which maintains the dotted eighth feel of the lick. I'd always heard and felt the quintuplet though and not the compacted triplet shuffle feel that the blushda would give. Looking at your transcription, I am convinced that you are correct. I always mistakenly assumed that the splashed hi-hat during that lick was the quarter note but is actually on count 2, the '&' of 3; in the next measure: count 1, the '&' of 2 and on the 'e' of 3.
Thanks for transcribing this musical intro lick that could only come from the mind of the great Vinnie Colaiuta!! Keep up the great work.

Clint