What aspect of your drumming are you working on right now!?

[Fat Mike]

Just wanted to pose another question, as most of us here are drummers.

What aspect of your drumming are you trying to improve, or, what particular exercises are you trying to master?

Me, im trying to master getting my feet quicker and more efficient, and trying to overcome nerves at gigs (i'm a newcomer to playing in front of people...and sometimes the nerves kill me and my normally consistent playing). Trying to develop fast single strokes that can be maintained over longer periods of time and working on polyrythms at the moment with hands and feet.

[jagdkommando]

1. I'm working on the exercises of Marco Minnemann's book "Extreme Interdependence" which is un(fucking)believable cool
2. I'm working very hard on cross sticking (singles, doubles, paradiddle)
3. Doubles, Flam, Accents and Paradiddles with feet

That's enough for me for the moment I think :)

[jimi]

Jagdkommando: where did you order the book??

[jagdkommando]

www.marcominnemann.de

the book is quite advanced and challanging ... (I can only speak for myself of course)

with a foreword by Virgil Donati!!

[jonberg]

I also work very much from the Extreme Interdependence book Jagdkommando, have you noticed that the patterns with 5grouping is similar to what Virgil is playing on Ground Zero??
I wonder if he got the idea from Marco...?

Anyway, I work very much with interdependence concept...I like the paradiddle variations...I worked on playing a p-diddle between my bassdrum and the snare with my left hand and then soloing with my hihat and floortom/Ride/X-hihat, that way,you always have a groove in the background, not just an exercise...I can now improvise with triplets,sixtenths,sextuplets, some 32nd note figures, and it´s also really fun when you replace the hihat with bassdrum (double pedal) you can get really crazy grooves
...now I´m trying to reverse everything. :)

and bassdrum technique: Double strokes, singles and combinations, flampatterns and own ideas..
...Jazz playing, working on the triplet phrasing and get the groove...
...different styles, shuffles, funk, latin (leftfoot clave grooves)
...and playing to records and so on.

Keep on drumming everyone!!

[Christopher]

Im moving this to the right forum, guys.

[jimi]

Ordered the book there!!

I'm always working on my power and speed using Virg's Power Drumming exercises with a few personal adjustments to get more out of the exercises. I also play rudiments to improve my stick control and foot co-ordination.
I mess about with Virg's Layered Groove Theory and polyrhythms too! Everything really :)

[morgenthaler]

My doublebass technique, my sence of time, coordination and independece are my main goals right now. Oh and my execution!
The ability to hit the drumheads and not the rims when playing in faster (real fast) tempos.

[jimi]

Strongly agree with you Jeppe, and not hit your other stick too, how do f**k does Virg absolutely NEVER do that anyway?!?

[frank]

It's all practice of course. Virgil has amazing speed on his toms, just scary to see him move from his left floor tom to his right floor tom but hearing a really fast roll!

I am currently working on more independence. Playing a normal beat with my right arm on the ride, but with the left foot playing triplets, and vice-versa. And then trying to do as many bassdrum accents. It's quite cool to see how freaky it can get! Also I am working on playing stuff like Virgil's "Fly's Eyes" from Stretch. Pretty cool stuff! My twinpedal is broke at the moment, otherwise I would be practising Drumspeak and Space Martini.. I can play space martini except for the ghostnotes virgil does with the snare drum, damn that's hard!

[peter]

I'm continuing to adapt to playing open-handed (leading left on a right handed kit). I'm also using the VRUK pedal attachments more effectively. Finally, I'm using my left foot in the place of my right for the normal kicking, looking to improve my left foot more.

[jimi]

@peter: how do you use your hihat if your kicking with your left foot AND playing open handed leading left?? I guess the answer has to be you don't, unless you switch handedness or footedness for different grooves?

[peter]

Hey, Jimi.

Double-kick is a new addition for me, having kicked single for almost 30 years. For now, I do not use the HH, except open, when I'm kicking with the left foot.

[jimi]

I'm going to get a drop clutch for my hi-hat this week, i'd say this would help you too peter. Some of the Pearl one's are a bit strange and someone recommended the DW version but i can't get a hold of one without paying a ridiculous price! I'll just have to doublecheck in the shop that the Pearl one works ok.

[peter]

Hey, Jimi.

I'm hoping the time will come when I can focus more fully on the kit. I think I'm one of the elders here at Virgil's and from the Jazz/Fusion side, at that. So, my thoughts and ideas are not going to be the mainstream here but I think the world of what Virgil's doing for the drums and music.

At the moment, I'm on a digitial kit. My acoustic set is packed away. I'm wired up into the computer. When I get the chance, I'll work on something. Just lately, I haven't had a real chance to play much. My arm has been bothering me (it's a long story but I'll share it some time with you) and I have a lot of other work that I have to do, leading up to an important meeting that I have, this coming Monday.

In 2-3 weeks, I have an Axis A - Longboard coming in. I'll be testing this out with my VRUK pedal attachments to see how I like them. I have been in touch with Vuk (of Vruk) and he's sold me on them (the Axis) but playing them is believing. We'll see.

Thanks for the suggestion and let me know what you think.

[jimi]

I was curious about the Axis longboard for a while, but i wouldn't spend my money on it before i knew what it was like. Maybe you can let me know? :)
About Jazz fusion, i understand the structures and maybe not all of the melodic complexities (i do play guitar) but i still find it hard to listen to. It's ok in a live setting where anything is about 5times more interesting than an album setting, because of the visual side. I got a CAB DVD and have watched and listened to that intently but i'm still finding it difficult to call it my cup of tea!
I guess i'm a bit too modern:D

[peter]

Jimi,

I have really done some experimentation with my drum pedals, over the years but especially the last two. What I have been experimenting with is tension, distance of beater to head, different springs (heavier gauge) and VRUK.

I'm using a heavy gauge spring, with the beater closer to the pad on this blip, highlighting the VRUK:

www.thediametrixletter.com/kicktuplet2.mp3

Check this VRUK footage out, Jimi:

www.thediametrixletter.com/1.mov
www.thediametrixletter.com/2.mov
www.thediametrixletter.com/3.mov

This is Vuk, himself, playing the Axis Longboard, with a VRUK attachment. I think you will find it interesting. We can talk more about it, if you're interested.

Now, I have always thought longboarding was more logical, even before Axis because of what I see guys like Steve Gadd doing - playing heel to toe and getting much faster as well as controlled results with it (he's got small feet, so he doesn't need a longboard). Now, remember that I am a single-kick player, now getting ready to switch to double.

On CAB and that kind of recent Fusion, i can't say it's my cup of tea either. I don't like the configuration and combination of players. There's good and bad everything and it really is subjective, in the end. Dennis is a great player but is better heard in other units like TOKYO LIVE!, with John McLaughlin and Joey DeFrancesco. Pick that up and you'll hear some real Fusion! To think that Dennis doesn't read a single note of music is mind-boggling! The guy ears are as big as his kick drum!

For what I consider "real" Jazz-Fusion, you really have to go back to the Mahavishnu era for the stuff that I'm into. Drummers like Billy Cobham and Lenny White laid the foundation for a lot of what it happening today. It's good to see and hear what actually happened in that era. Like I tell jazz fans, don't shut the door on it because it's different. A lot do because they're not into Virgil's sounds but hey, let's acknowledge the player and see into his world, right?

A lot of drummers today don't know what happened to the drums in the 1970's. They changed radically and not in just the way they sounded but in the way they were played.

Great talking with you.

[kirk]

It is interesting because I view what Dennis was doing with John in Tokyo to be more in the "Jazz" vein then the true fusion vein. Alot more swing feel with some Be-bop going on than the grittier stuff say of Mahavishnu or my All time favorite Return To Forever and Lifetime or Dimeola with Gadd. I do as far as composition think CAB to be more in the fusion line than jazz or anything else, but I agree I like stuff with a harder edge to it, that is why I come to Planet X it is reminiscent of the older stuff compositionally(not the same but reminiscent) but it has got balls to it. Of course it has more of a metal feel but still falls very hard into the fusion with alot of guts category.

I do not like the lounge, elevator type fusion to syrupy for me. Alot of the good old fusion of the 70's had balls to it, it became more lame in the 80's for sure. I really appreciated what Chick was doing in the 80's with Weckl, I listened to it alot but still would of dug it more if it was grittier. Then that is why I always dug Vinnie more he played with alot of guys that had more meat to what they were doing. Not all the time but much of the time.

Regards Kirk

[peter]

I know what you mean, Kirk.

Main Entry: fu·sion
Pronunciation: 'fyü-zh&n
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Latin fusion-, fusio, from fundere
Date: 1555
1 : the act or process of liquefying or rendering plastic by heat
2 : a union by or as if by melting: as a : a merging of diverse, distinct, or separate elements into a unified whole b : a political partnership : COALITION c : popular music combining different styles (as jazz and rock)
3 : the union of atomic nuclei to form heavier nuclei resulting in the release of enormous quantities of energy when certain light elements unite

In the 3rd definition, we get a picture of what the word can mean but I don't think it's limited to jazz and rock and even necessarily in that order. I listen to a LOT of music and when I hear influences in it from different genres, I'm calling it Fusion. For instance, what Eddie Palmieri does is a Jazz-Latin fusion etc.

Planet X is like a Rock to Jazz Fusion but both are lifting each other up. What Virgil is bringing to the table is great for drummers and what Planet X is doing is great for Metal.

Remember Tony Williams Lifetime Kirk, with Alan Holdsworth on guitar? Tony shook the earth with that configuration. I get the same impression from these 3 guys. It's great.

[kirk]

Yeah I agree. You could have country-metal fusing together and making a distinct style, but going back to the true birthing of
"FUSION" as a distinct style not a definition of mixing elements, it was the compositional, melodic and harmonic aspects of Jazz melding with the power, energy, grit, volume and also to a degree the speed of Rock and Roll. There were some melodic and harmonic twining from rock in there also but not as much.
Of course what Miles was doing with Tony and Jack at the end of Tony's playing days with him was the beginning of something new. Then came along Eleventh House and Tony's Lifetime and Mahavishnu and BAM!!!! something new was going on.


Your right Planet X is definitely fusion(based on the compositional complexity and outrageous rhythmic foundations and a good blend of harmonic and melodic push and pull but it is definitely coming from the "ROCK" side of the tracks with the grit and volume and punch. It is not the Jazz side of the tracks due to the lack of true jazz swing and not an over abundance of true jazz harmonies, but they got there own thing going where I can really call them "Prog Fusion" they are making a statement for REAL hard edged fusion AGAIN! Thank Goodness.

You are right ON!!! about Tony Williams Lifetime man did they tear it up back then, Allan was so young and MAN! was he Awesome even then, I wore that recording out. I still listen to them all the time. Tony and Allan pushing and pulling with eachother incredible. I still TEAR up thinking that Tony is gone, TOO EARLY for him to go. But he left a legacy.

I think what Virgil did with OTV was an amazing shot in the arm for REAL hard edged fusion. It is amazing to read how many guys from different sides of the tracks think Serious Young Insects was an Amazing signature Prog-fusion recording, it was. Cannot wait for the follow up to that;) hint hint at Virgil:D

Great Posts Peter, keep up the good work!

Regards Kirk

[peter]

It's nothing, Kirk.

Who can NOT acknowledge the gift of Virgil and then his vision? At the risk of sounding melodramatic, I believe only those that stood in the face of Tony and Miles and the rest of the great individuals that dared to be different and yet dared to be the same, acknowledging that what is popular can be elevated to that which is artistic and groundwork for a real future, musically.

I had the great fortune/misfortune of studying with Tony back during that very time. While to most, that seems like a wish come true, it was not all pleasant, to say the least. He was a different person then, comapared to what people tell me he was like later on but a mark, he left on me.

There was a fire in him that is lit in Virgil. I know it. He would have been proud to see what Virgil has done and is doing. It's great to see this evolution as it's happening and not have to wait for history... again.

[jimi]

Thank you for your thoughts peter and kirk, compelling reading and i'm curious to find out about all of this and more. maybe if i dip into the past of jazz, i can come back to the present with more appreciation.

ps. i downloaded your files peter but i have yet to see the footage, i'll get back to you to discuss this a bit more, and about your findings with pedal settings also, which i am currently exploring,
Cheers:)

[DavidPartay]

My current work is on my control, speed and power of my hands and feet.

My current goal speed is 16th notes at 170bpm (680 hits total in a minute).

My regime basically includes Virgil Donati's Power Drumming exercises for the hands, I'm doing double strokes on my bassdrum at about 90bpm at the moment.... I fully need to work on my double stroke roll with my hands starting at about 70 just sitting there going RIGHT RIGHT LEFT LEFT because my hands are shocking... and building from there.

Once I've got EVERYTHING I want to do consistent at 16th notes at 170, I'll start upping the speed. That basically means I want to be able to do shuffled double strokes at that speed (16th notes, not 8th note triplets) with both my feet and hands. Once I've got all that stuff totally solid at 170, I'm gonna be happy as.

[jimi]

Peter, Do you use the Vruk attachment? I see that this allows for different rules when it comes to the pedal adjustment. The one you described using would call for either a heel down approach or a 'floating' heel up one, because the weight of the foot couldn't rest too much on the pedal, it (the beater) being so close and all to the bass drum. (this is without a vruk)
The opposite to this is a tighter spring and further away beater placement, which can cradle your foot weight. This can be a better balanced approach.
BUT ... I've read that you should be able to use a pedal without the springs if you have the proper functional movements in your pedal technique, and that the springs shouldn't make up for bad technique in your foot movements.
And then, with the spring adjusted and added to what you do, your output can be maximised. Are you still with me here??
Please add to/correct my theories/ponderings:)

[peter]

Hey, Jimi. Just got back from Connecticut.

Yes, I use it. Did you check out Vuk's videos?

I have adapted it into my technique but am open to new ideas on it, especially when my AXIS pedal comes in.

The principle behind the VRUK has to do with pulling the beater back, faster, for the next stroke. The tighter spring helps in this regard, as well. It keeps the beater away from the head.

I have tried many approaches on the kick, as far as the spring tension and gauge (size) is concerned. I suggest experimenting with it to everyone, instead of just "accepting" the "standards" and see what fits into your scheme.

I think I follow you and incidentally, it's always a pleasure exchanging with you.

[jimi]

I might get a pair of them yet, at least i can add them to a list of things i'd love to have for my drums (incl. sabian saturation cymbals, remote hi-hat, Virg teaching me! etc.:D)

Hope you enjoyed Conneticut :)

[peter]

Jimi,

Before you get the Vruk Pedal Attachment, see if you can experiment with a heavier gauge spring. At your neighborhood hardware store, they'll have tons. Try something thicker. Remember to draw the beater closer to the head, to make up for the added tension. Tell me what you think.

Stay cool in the land of arguably the greatest beer in the world!

[jimi]

What a great idea! I will and thanks for the suggestion :)

About the beer, they brew Heineken and Murphy's Irish Stout (so much better than guinness!) in the city center. you can't get fresher finer top quality beer and stout than that!! (can you?:D)

[swedendrummer]

yeaahhhhhhh today i did 1000 single strokes in a minute! (250bpm) im not working so much on that things but its fun! now its time too practise independence!!! tell my about your results...

[jagdkommando]

I measured my speed last week:
hands: 220bpm singles, 250bpm doubles
feet: 210bpm singles, 190bmp doubles

but don't get me wrong: I'm not proud because speed is not the goal for me (of course it is but not in this way - means: not stupid "tatatatatatata"). My main goal is to be able to play everything in marco minnemanns book extreme interdependence - and some rythms I built out of his'. Then I want to combine it with my speed and precision exercises. And afterwards I'll search for the next goals *g* (in a few years *muaahahaha*)

@swedendrummer: you should take place at the "Worlds Fastest Drummer's contest" www.extremesportdrumming.com

[drumsRlife]

I saw the vruk pedal at one of the World's Fastest Drummer shows and thought it was really an awesome device. I didn't get to try it out, but did see Tim Waterson do 650 in 60 seconds using one foot. Tim is very misunderstood in the fact that a lot of people simply think that just because you are fast you can't play with a band, but Tim does.

I am working on his heel and toe technique out of the drum! magazine and wondered how different Tim's Technique is to Virgil's? I think speed is very important depending on the syle of music you like to play. Not everyone chooses to play only slow songs.

I am new as far as posting here and really do enjoy the open discussions on such wide topics. Many sites won't even let you discuss double bass techniques and speed.

Later

[peter]

I'm in communciation almost regularly with Tim. He's quite a fellow and very, very helpful. As a matter of fact, it was partly on his recommendation that I tried purchasing the Axis Longboard, which I am waiting for.

Did you check out these videos:

www.thediametrixletter.com/1.mov
www.thediametrixletter.com/2.mov
www.thediametrixletter.com/3.mov

This is Vuk of Vruk, who's in also in touch with Tim. Look at his technique, using the VRUK pedal. There's a real contrast to Tim's technique but hey, there's more than one way to skin a cat!

Tim uses high tension, the beater close to the head, and depression, deep on the footboard. I'm trying to talk about it with him myself. Like I said, he's very helpful.

[drumsRlife]

Cool!!!! I couldn't get the videos to open what player do you need to use?

I am glad you shared your comunication with Tim with us. I don't understand why so many people try to tear their fellow drummers down instead of building each other with support.

Tim nor any of the WFD guys play only single strokes at full speed on a song from the band stand or stage. They know better than that, but when they are at the WFD speed is important.

There is a new video also at www.extremesportdrumming.com called Insights and it has Mike Mangini, Tim and Johnny rabb explaining their speed techniques and all those guys more into the educational side of how to do it properly rather than speed as an end unto itself.

Nothing wrong with speed but one needs to know how to do it so they want get hurt trying to play as fast as these guys. Over 19 strokes per second for a min takes conditioning and training to stay that relaxed and have the endurance for that last 30 seconds. I have tried it and it is a KILLER!!!!!!!!

My hat is off to the WFD guys and what they have accomplished. As some one else here stated it is FUN!!!!!!

[peter]

It's easy for "speed" to get bad rap and I'll be the first to speak against it, IF I see a player sacrificing control and context for it. WFD is speed, in context. What is accomplished there, in my opinion, should stay there.

As for what happens musically, speed is secondary and the last thing a drummer should be worried about. Again, this is my opinion. Speed will naturally stem from control but not the other way around; not to mention coordination.

Drummers don't get hired because they're the fastest drummers.

Insecurity is fodder for criticism. Tim is a good guy and he's not prententious in the least. He lets everyone know what he's doing and the purpose behind it.

Every drummer has something to offer.

[alencore]

so anyone who just wanna play technical drum solos only, make sure you have a good day job or a wealthy parents or gf or wife.

[jimi]

Well Virg does this, and the only one i'm sure he has is a good day job, a drummer! So it's not impossible alencore :)

btw : i hope Virg is happy in life and family, i wonder are there any little Virg juniors running around. (probably finishing up there interdependence studies by now i'd say:D)

[peter]

I think I get what you mean but Virgil does MORE than that (technical drum solos), in my opinon and that's why we're here talking about him on this board, I think.

When you get the chance to see him in clinic, listen to what he says, as well as watch what he does. He does not put speed over control and note the music and how he interprets it.

While doing very complex stickings and rhythms, he lays down foundations that keep the music flowing. He makes no bones about how important this is. Virgil has tremendous sense of rhythm and pulse. He's not just a bunch of flash or technical prowess. He's precision on both sides of the spectrum.

When he plays his 7's, listen to how heavy his 4 is that's alternating. He's doing that purposely to give a powerful sense of dynamic rhythm. So it's not about just playing 7, which anyone can do with just a little practice. It's about playing it, while emphasizing the 4 count. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about.

Technical proficiency does not necessarily equal speed, in my opinion. It means accuracy. That's what Virgil is about. I think that's what he wants for us too. He's very positive.

At one clinic, he said to an attendee, who responded to something that he did on the kit, saying "I could never do that.", with "Don't say that, man. You CAN do that and more."

Virgil is a great drummer, who's worked hard and not only that, he wants to let us know that there's a world out there for us too.

[GiulianoKolling]

Well, that's a good question!!!
I've been studing the Gary's Chester method(The New Breed)!!!Its fantastic,it makes u feel time,sing each part of what u r playing,and gives u a nice independence!!!
As well, i am working on some double bass exercices!!!

Cheers

[Kinetic drummer]

well, im always practicing!

i do my daily routine to keep my hands and feet in shape, which is, all sort of rudiments with hands. and just singles, doubles, 3 rolls and 5 rolls in feets. (like the lang exercises) im not that good at bass drum yet!

im working in various books. such as extreme interdependence, wilcoxon solos, stickin patterns and time functioning patterns. but i choose them randomly, and i track a progress. i know this wont work for lots of guys, but what i do is to learn something, and apply it into my playing. sometimes i practiced lots of stuff, and when i had to play in real musical situations, i never applied em!.

what i enjoy the most, is playing with cds, cab cds, dave grusin cds, or pop music, cuz i really want to develop lots of confidence while playing a groove, keeping time as a machine and playing with the heart, (making it groove indeed!).honestly, when you reach this goal, all the technical stuff seems so useless! but ok! it is not!, i´ve learn more from records than books. it all depends where do you wanna go right? your goal as a drummer!

another thing i started to working on in is some drum n bass grooves.( i can see that jojo mayer is on the same thing, but he became crazy with it! im woprking with some ideas of my own too. i go to the drumset, just making orchestrations with hands and creating stuff! and try to have fun! sometimes the hand and feet routine is boring, so i watch TV! i hehe ts awesome! with the time, i am now a charmed fan, a seinfeld fan, a scrubs fan, a desperate housewives fan, and all that kinda stuff!!

i like music a lot, i mean music theory, and i´m studying some berklee harmony books! which help me when im stocked making a riff for my band, and i dunno where to go! haha!

but ok... long post... my main point is.. that ´, as a drummer i´d like to be solid as a rock, with groove....

remember the drummer has 3 functions in the band.

1.to keep time
2. to listen
3. TO KEEP TIME!!!!

[Wankmaster Joe]

Strongly agree with you Jeppe, and not hit your other stick too, how do f**k does Virg absolutely NEVER do that anyway?!?

I've actually heard him hit the rims and the sticks believe it or not.

[DrumSetMan19]

I have been drumming for 8 years and I have played solos in front of large crowds so I'm not really nervous to play for anyone. So the thing I'm working on is preparing showmanship like stick tricks because I'm physched to play at the variety show for my school in march. So im trying to think of the things I can get an audience to interact with.=)

[C.J.]

Wow old thread reanimation!

[IronCobraMan]

nice and even german grip is what im working on right now.... man...ITS ALL ABOUT THE WRISTS...fingers are indeed for pussies...or the french....but thats the same thing isnt it :D


and of course.... raising my singles and doubles speed, power and precision on the ol' feet :P

[roxz]

I'm focussing on doubles for improving my singles. I'm also practising to lead with my right hand instead of my left hand ( I'm left-handed)

ANd singels snglie singles snglezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[GreenPremier]

I'm working on doubles and my "flat-foot" technique with the hip flexors, like Derek, Mangini, and Bostic advocate. Previously I was using all ankles and the burn would be in my shins alot or lower legs. Now it's in the hipflexor area, not the quads. It feels weird but I feel like I can go alot faster with alot more power for longer. My legs are stick getting used to it though, they're a little tired.
And I'm always working on blasting and playing to music as much as I can.

[alencore]

aside my weekday jazz warriors whenevr the guys can make it i help ppl get into drums more...teaching...and it seems to bounce back at me three folds.

[kamelot811]

atm, working on my speed and precision regarding my feet, in relation to a complex but very slow beat