Virgil Donati vs. Vinnie Colaiuta at Modern Drummer (nice dream!!!!)

[Sillyman]

Hey i would like to see a drum battle between Virgil and Vinnie the 2 V's on a drum battle like the old times when Buddy and Gene used to battle themselves .Just imagine a battle that big on a Modern Drummer Festival wouldn't it be nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[DerNeue]

Yeah that would be fun! But it would be even more fun if they wrote a duett together and perform it!!!
By the way: Don't you think that would be a bit unfair? I mean does Vinnie have the kind of feet that Virgil has? The problem is that Virgil seems to be able to do almost every kind of rudiment with his feet?

The idea of bringing in drum battles would be fun anyway to stay on-topic!

[TimeConsumer]

The idea of bringing in drum battles would be fun anyway to stay on-topic!

Like an online drumbattle between nevesis and ICM ? :D

[dcdrmwthme]

Hey i would like to see a drum battle between Virgil and Vinnie the 2 V's on a drum battle like the old times when Buddy and Gene used to battle themselves .Just imagine a battle that big on a Modern Drummer Festival wouldn't it be nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Virgil is near the top of my list. If it were a "battle" as a demonstration, it would be pretty interesting, im sure. But if it were a battle as in who is more advanced, theres none better than Vinnie.

[PolyOstinato]

Vinnie's feet are pretty damn good, if not quite in Virgil's league. Check out the newest Megadeth CD.

[dcdrmwthme]

Vinnie's feet are pretty damn good, if not quite in Virgil's league. Check out the newest Megadeth CD.

Yes, Vinnies feet are AMAZING, although not quite as good as Virgils. BUT, all of that odd phrasing that Virgil does with his feet, Vinnie was the first to really explore that back in the late 1970s.

I suspect if Vinnie wanted to, he could play double bass as good as anyone.

[kirk]

I would say that if many had the work ethic that Virg had, THEY speaking of many could do better than where they are at now. So I do not buy the "if Vinnie wanted to do that then he could" philosophy. The fact is that Vinnie does not do what much of what Virgil does. Virgil is clearly more advanced rhythmically than Vinnie but so is Marco, Mangini and Thomas. Just sticking to the technical side(I know the whole I think he is more musical and groove's better debate alway's wants to pop it's head up when technique is talked about but my statement is just concerning the technical side) I think these 4 have clearly went farther than Vinnie in many aspects. Hey that is just reality. Vinnie is not a god just a man who happen's to be an amazing drummer who has had a profound influence on the drumming world. But there are alway's those who will surpassthose that came before them. I happen to know that Vinnie would be the first to tell us that. I know for a fact that he clearly recognizes Virgil's unique contributions to the drumming world.

By the way I really would not be interested in seeing them battle eachother. I would like to see them just jam together and see what comes out, that would be very cool.

[vdreignsuponus1]

i want to see donati, lang, and minnemann do a weckl, gadd, colaiuta type of thing from the buddy rich thing. hmm..

[dcdrmwthme]

Virgil is clearly more advanced rhythmically than Vinnie but so is Marco, Mangini and Thomas. I think these 4 have clearly went farther than Vinnie in many aspects. Hey that is just reality.

The things that Virgil, Thomas lang , Marco and Mangini are doing now are ideas that Vinnie came up with 30 years ago. There is no way that any of them are rhythmically more advanced than Vinnie. Not only did he pave the way, hes still leading the way.

I saw Virgils clinic at Drummers Collective a few months ago. He was AMAZING. Aside from his raw speed and power, the thing that blew people away were his rhythmic phrasing of odd number tuplet-type groups. Even after he explained it, most people didnt even understand it. I did, because I was fortunate to study with Gary Chaffee (the one who taught Vinnie most of this). While Im sure i'll never approach the drumming level of Virgil or Lang, I can say with 100% certainity that I understand fully what they do, and its nothing that Vinnie hasnt been doing for years.

By the way, after the clinic, Virgil referred to it as "Colaiuta phrasing".

[KarnEvil]

http://www.houseofdrumming.com/mp3s/vinnie.mp3

[Matthias]

Not only did he pave the way, hes still leading the way.


I second that. Paving the way is the big part of the work and needs the most creativity. The same with Portnoy: He probably listened to Neil quite a few times, now he is maybe "better" than him (or not). He sure has his own ideas, he is creative and musical, but getting to him and taking his thing a step further isn't that big a deal anymore, because he has already done half the work. You just have to learn what he's thinking and doing, and you are "as good as Portnoy", for the average listener. BTW I still love Portnoy, no bashing there!!

Doing that with the great Vinnie is of course a whole another thing :D !

By the way, if the battle just concerns technique, then Virgil would stand out, yes, but if they include musicality, groove, styles, ideas and so on, than they would be even I think. Or maybe on a good day Vinnie won?

[ataraxia]

Yeah I'd love to see another of those three way drum off things, like the Gadd/Colaiuta/Weckl thing.

Although I'd have Virg, Lang and Mangini personally.

But imagine one of those with Bozzio, Grant Collins and Portnoy! Those three kits on one stage would look amazing!!

[morgenthaler]

For a cool jam I would pick Virgil/Vinnie/Weckl.
To me (TO ME) they have far more musical phrasing than Lang, Minnemann and Mangini.

[kirk]

I am not only talking about odd group phrasing. I have never seen Vinnie display the leftside to rightside independence of a Virg or Mangini. I have never seen Vinnie display the ambidexterity of a Virg or Vinnie or Thomas. I have never seen Vinn lay down three different note values with three different limb's at the same time than move freely around the kit with the other limb. I have never seen Vinnie come close to laying down extremely varied and complex ostinatos at high speed's with the feet than solo over the top with the hand's as a Virg or Thomas does.

Sure most concepts concerning note values and the grouping of those note values are still the same(yes I understand many concepts are still the same), but these guy's have come up with fresh and new ideas to employ because they have the physical means to display what is in their head's. I still say that these guy's have developed some of their physical skill's to a level I have never seen. Does not mean for a second that I enjoy their drumming more because I do not at all. Only Virg hit's me on a level like Vinnie. These other guy's just do not have the musical creativity that Vinn does IMO. Some of their physical skill is scarier, but that is it. By the way did I say that Vinnie's raw physical skill is mindblowing also. It alway's has been.

I know for a fact because I stood within ear shot of Vinnie saying it, that he believes that a guy like Virg has pushed the boundaries of drumming considerably. Vinnie was one of Virgil's biggest supporter's raving about him way back when, why? Not Because he played the exact same thing's as Vinnie. I cannot see Vinnie raving about Virg declaring "Hey look at this guy he plays just like me Wow! what an original" I have nothing against Vinnie at all he is pure genius IMO, the Man has probably had the most profound influence on me as a drummer along with Virg but I also understand their unique contribution's. Part of Vinnie's greatness is that he can take an idea not really all too complex but use it in a variety of way's that end's up looking and sounding absolutely brilliant. His creativity has alway's been astounding.
His phrasing is ridiculous. I could go on and on about Vinnie's Greatness but I have being doing that for twenty years I am worn out. :D I have only been raving about Virg for ten years I got ten to go.

[Matthias]

Agreed. By the way, the guy that impresses me the most again and again these days is Horacio Hernandez. He's wild!!! AND he has what we agree some other sick guys lack at times: Creativity and musicality, plenty of :)!

[mathcore]

Agreed. By the way, the guy that impresses me the most again and again these days is Horacio Hernandez. He's wild!!! AND he has what we agree some other sick guys lack at times: Creativity and musicality, plenty of :)!

Agreed, Horacio is the man when it comes to latin drumming.

[toteman2]

The things that Virgil, Thomas lang , Marco and Mangini are doing now are ideas that Vinnie came up with 30 years ago. There is no way that any of them are rhythmically more advanced than Vinnie. Not only did he pave the way, hes still leading the way.


Vinnie will be the first one to tell you that Virgil is more advanced than him. Virgil can do everything Vinnie does, and then some. I LOVE Vinnie but the truth is the truth.

[percusski]

My opinion is that both Vinnie and Virgil are great players, who is better is purely subjective, however they are both WAY ahead of Lang, Minnemann and Mangini. Again just my opinion. If I was pushed to make a decision I think Vinnie would take it, after all real complexity is not what limb you can phrase against another, it's when those rates etc which are being phrased against are in the mind with no physical reference point, and in that respect Vinnie is awesome. Pete Zeldman also takes this concept much further than most.

[dcdrmwthme]

Vinnie will be the first to tell you that MOST top drummers are more advanced than him; hes a super humble man, and not competitive. Ask most top drummers who is the most advanced, and they will tell you its Vinnie.

Yes, a lot of guys can do what he does, but HE CAME UP WITH IT!!! I can play the rhythm scale from 1 through 8 over 1 beat, forwards, and backwards, and phrased as singles, doubles and a few other different ways. I personally know only 2 drummers who have full command over this, and 1 of them is Gary Chaffee. Its difficult, and its the foundation for Vinnies playing. So, in many ways, I can play a lot of the same things as Vinnie, where you kind of lose track of the downbeat, or get the impression that tempo is changing, when its not. Am I anywhere near the playing level of Vinnie or Virgil? Of course not. The huge difference is that he "invented it" and took it to the level its at now. Guys like Virgil, Lang and Marco are making great careers out of this, and experimenting with it and doing things that Vinnie hasnt done. I give them a lot of credit for that, but it doesnt in any way make them more advanced.

Its hard for me to argue this without sounding like Im against Virgil. Like I said, I love him, hes near the top of the heap in my opinion. I wont have any more posts in this thread, because Im going to come off as a Virgil-basher.

I love you all!!! :D

[kirk]

I know you are not a Virgil basher. :D But I believe Vinnie was not feigning humility when he said Virg has taken drumming to new height's. I know this about Vinnie also, yes he is humble but he does not give out REAL praise just off the cuff. He uses a fair amount of restraint in the thing's he say's about other musicians. When he seems to truly get excited about someone's musical contribution than he seem's to let the word's flow a little easier. I remember the MD article about 3 ot 4 years ago when he was asked about some of his peers contributions, all very well known guy's and even though he had nice thing's to say about all of them it was only about 3 or 4 guy's that seemed to truly arouse his passion.

By the way I used that same argument about Vinnie actually inventing certain method's or concept's what have you and I got bashed for it and was told that Tony W. actually invented those concepts and Vinnie just used Tony's ideas in different way's. I was actually told that there has not been a TRUE innovator since the 50's to 60's that everyone else after was just using taking the TRUE innovations and using them in different way's.

We had this debate at the HOD forum last about 2 years ago. There was a poll taken at HOD last year of who has been the most revolutionary drummer of the last 10 to 15 years and it was hand's down Virg and to my shock even guy's who rip on Virg for not grooving or just being a showboat and wanker, these same guy's were at least able to say that Virg has pushed the boundaries farther than any other drummer in that time frame. The guy's most often mentioned before Virg coming on the scene guess who, Buddy Vinnie with Tony and Weckl thrown in there for good measure along with a few other's.

When I think about it Thomas Lang and Dave Weckl have said the same thing. 10 years ago Weckl actually was asked if he knew of anyone that really had BLOWN him away as of recent and Weckl replies "yes there is this guy from Australia that is doing thing's with the drums that are astounding I have never seen anyone do what this guy is pulling off, people really need to check this guy out." I wonder what other's think of the opinion's of Great's like Weckl and Lang.

And by the way this topic should have nothing to do with "WHO IS THE BETTER DRUMMER" It is a topic about technique and concepts. Being more technically advanced does not = "better drummer." To many Jeff Porcaro is their drummer of choice and therefore is THE better drummer to them, whether wrong or right does not matter. And it is the same with all of us we like who we like.

[dcdrmwthme]

Wow, Virgil won a poll at HOD??? Im truely shocked...thats Colaiuta and Weckl territory over there! Vinnie and Dave can do no wrong on HOD!

[kirk]

Yeah Virg was called the most ground breaking drummer by most who responded to the thread, but he is still not a "Musical" drummer to many of the guy's there. And yes Vinnie can do NO! wrong at HOD. :p Well I should say only the "Jazzers" can find something wrong with Vinnie as representitive of TRUE jazz drumming.

[Dillinger]

They are both easily the two best drummers on the planet in my opinion. Two different players as well, but still both amazingly mind-blowing in their own right!

[Matthias]

The two of them plus Dennis Chambers! He gets better and better too, it seems. I just bought Planet Earth, and he rules!!

But it's hard to compare the best of the best anyway. I don't like to compare Virgil to Vinnie and vv normally, because they're simply different. I too believe there are things Virgil does Vinnie can't do, but on the other hand Vinnie gets jobs all over the world, for all possible styles, like noone else does. That's a unique qualitiy of his, too!

[ataraxia]

Sorry, but what is the HOD forum?

And while we're on the subject of my ignorance, could someone recommend the best Zappa album to get hold of with Vinnie? Is it Joe's Garage?

And Matthias, Dennis Chambers is definately up there with the best of them. I was given In the Pocket for xmas and I'm in awe of this incredible musician. Dennis is a drumming institution. His style is his, and his alone. You can sit down and learn the Lang stuff with enough time, patience and practise. The same can be said for a lot of the great technicians. But when watching Dennis' dvd, I was thinking that you can't teach what he has. His playing is something intrinsic, which very few people in the world have. It's their incredibly unique feel for the music, and so few drummers have the ability to actually move me. Brian Blade I think has Chambers' feel/groove, as does Nat Townsley IMO. I think a big part in Dennis' style is the fact he's never had formal training in music. He's not getting caught up in what he's playing, or planning his next polyrhythmic fill. He's just playing, and letting it all flow.

Those drum and bass grooves on the dvd, (which if you haven't checked out you should) sound so damn f-ing good. Only a handful of drummers can make a groove come alive THAT well I think. Having said though, it seems I'm getting caught up in the never ending groove arguement. I just want to say that I do love Virgil as much as DC, but his groove and feel for the music is so different. That's why CAB is such a great set up. Two awesome drummers at the top of their game, each with the same music to play. Watching their different and unique approaches to the music is fascinating IMO.

The thing about these guys is, however much you develop your chops, you won't sound like them, as what they've got is PURE musicality.

[percusski]

Vinnie will be the first to tell you that MOST top drummers are more advanced than him; hes a super humble man, and not competitive. Ask most top drummers who is the most advanced, and they will tell you its Vinnie.

Yes, a lot of guys can do what he does, but HE CAME UP WITH IT!!! I can play the rhythm scale from 1 through 8 over 1 beat, forwards, and backwards, and phrased as singles, doubles and a few other different ways. I personally know only 2 drummers who have full command over this, and 1 of them is Gary Chaffee. Its difficult, and its the foundation for Vinnies playing. So, in many ways, I can play a lot of the same things as Vinnie, where you kind of lose track of the downbeat, or get the impression that tempo is changing, when its not. Am I anywhere near the playing level of Vinnie or Virgil? Of course not. The huge difference is that he "invented it" and took it to the level its at now. Guys like Virgil, Lang and Marco are making great careers out of this, and experimenting with it and doing things that Vinnie hasnt done. I give them a lot of credit for that, but it doesnt in any way make them more advanced.

Its hard for me to argue this without sounding like Im against Virgil. Like I said, I love him, hes near the top of the heap in my opinion. I wont have any more posts in this thread, because Im going to come off as a Virgil-basher.

I love you all!!! :D

Hi David, maybe you could elaborate on "the rhythm scale" are you simply refering to playing through the table of time (different rates) over 1 beat? Often in drumming there are many names for the same thing.

[dcdrmwthme]

Sorry, but what is the HOD forum?

And while we're on the subject of my ignorance, could someone recommend the best Zappa album to get hold of with Vinnie? Is it Joe's Garage?



HOD is HouseOfDrumming.com, Its a pretty good forum, generally has knowledgeable members, and is heavily leaning towards the worship of Vinnie and Dave.

In my opinion, Joes Garage is an amazing drum recording all the way through.

He literally makes it near impossible to keep hold of the downbeat in certain songs, and forces you to feel like tempo is slowing down, skipping, and speding up. Vinnie does this all under the guise of making music, not making an album to show off his chops.
Its like a great piece of art, the more you listen to it, the more you'll notice greatness in it! Check out "Keep it greasy' and "A little green Rosetta".

[grandpascorpion]

I think Pete Magadini pioneered the rhythm scale idea. I believe his Polyrhythms : A Musician's Guide (originally issued as two books) predates Chaffee's stuff.

[Matthias]

Isn't 'in the pocket' this old Chambers-video? is it still worth buying it?

[Matthias]

Went to HOD, and they keep talking about the "blushda" all the time. Is that this flam-thing Bissonette also uses (and explains in his new DVD)?
Right, it sounds cool, but why do they make THAT big a deal out of it!?

And besides, Bissonette uses it too often I think, once it sounds cool, a few times later it's just a lick and it makes him look less creative...

[dcdrmwthme]

The Blushda is an old school Tony Williams lick. Its really great sounding, and a little difficult to do. Yes, its the one that Bissonette uses a lot.

The reason they keep talking about it over there is because Steve Holmes, the man who runs the forum, posted a how-to of the Blushda a while back, and it gets a lot of air play as a result.

I recently taught the Blushda to a friend of mine, and he took it and now plays it better than anyone Ive ever seen. His name is Lennox, and in a few weeks hes going to the Guitar Center Drum-off grand finals in Hollywood.
Must have been my Blushda that got him that far :D :D :D

[ataraxia]

'In The Pocket' is a DVD release of a video, from 1988 I think. The clothes are extremely dated!! His kit is a bit dated looking at it, compared to the Reference series he's playing now.

However, the music is timeless I think. It's not a DVD in the style of Creative Control. It's not just a list of excersises, and it's not trying to be instructional. I think it's trying and succeding in being inspirational. It's more an insight into Dennis' wonderful playing. He discusses his career, and his playing. But if it sounds like your thing, then it's worth getting. Although I can see why it might not appeal to every kind of drummer.

[TuomasR]

[QUOTE=ataraxia]'In The Pocket' is a DVD release of a video, from 1988 I think. The clothes are extremely dated!! His kit is a bit dated looking at it, compared to the Reference series he's playing now.


I own in the pocket vid and if i remember right it was released 1992. That is still an amazing video,every drummer should watch that. Just downloaded megadeth´s cd where vinnie plays. It seems that heavy drumming is not a problem for him :D

[Dillinger]

Check out "Keep it greasy' and "A little green Rosetta".
Definitely check out these 2 songs. They are prime examples of why Vinnie is one of the greatest drummers of all time! Keep It Greasy shows his great command of complex time signatures (in this example 19/16...and apparantly 21/16 as well) and Little Green Rosetta is just insane - not too mention hilarious when Frank mentions Vinnie as "Steve Gadd's clone" and talks about his drumming at that point of the song. Joe's Garage is an amazing album, I recommend it to any drum loving person!
And I agree with Matthias that Bissonette does use that blushda fill way to often. Does sound really cool though.

[Matthias]

You can sit down and learn the Lang stuff with enough time, patience and practise. The same can be said for a lot of the great technicians. But when watching Dennis' dvd, I was thinking that you can't teach what he has. His playing is something intrinsic, which very few people in the world have. It's their incredibly unique feel for the music, and so few drummers have the ability to actually move me.


Beautiful definition of musicality :) !!

[DerNeue]

What Albums would you sugest me from Vinnie that really give a good insight into his style and what has made him so famous? And I do not mean his solo album(s). I mean bandwise.
I do not now where to start. So what was your biggest inspiration from his playing musical and not expecially technical wise?

[pcannon]

The things that Virgil, Thomas lang , Marco and Mangini are doing now are ideas that Vinnie came up with 30 years ago. There is no way that any of them are rhythmically more advanced than Vinnie. Not only did he pave the way, hes still leading the way.

I saw Virgils clinic at Drummers Collective a few months ago. He was AMAZING. Aside from his raw speed and power, the thing that blew people away were his rhythmic phrasing of odd number tuplet-type groups. Even after he explained it, most people didnt even understand it. I did, because I was fortunate to study with Gary Chaffee (the one who taught Vinnie most of this). While Im sure i'll never approach the drumming level of Virgil or Lang, I can say with 100% certainity that I understand fully what they do, and its nothing that Vinnie hasnt been doing for years.

By the way, after the clinic, Virgil referred to it as "Colaiuta phrasing".
In deed, Frank Zappa once said Vinnie was the most skilled sight reader he'd ever seen.That says ALOT.
Run out and purchase "Joes Garage" by Zappa.
check the date the album was recorded.It still stands up!
He's been in demand for many years,which also says alot in our " Here today,gone later today" music business.
Virgil,(IMO) is the best drummer on the planet, but there would be no Virgil if there was no Vinnie.
Like Vinnie, you don't realize the FULL extent of Virgils talent until you start learning thier songs note for note! Then you just want to sell your drums!!!!

[Sillyman]

I in my own personal opinion like Virgil over all drummers he is the one that got me deeper into drumming and the resposible to discover double bass drumming . Of course he is my favorite but i also love many more drummers like Terry Bozzio ,Horacio Hernandez, Dennis Chambers ,Thomas Lang ...................Etc,etc,etc........ i could not finish my long list but Virgil is been my inspiration for years.

[Sillyman]

Actualy a duet would be so cool!!!!!!!!!! a true Masterpiece!!!!!!!!!!!!

[percusski]

For Vinnie's more recent stuff, I love the playing on Jing Chi 3D track 2 Chi Town, amazing feel! Virgil is great but there is still some space between him and Vinnie, like I said it's not about what is being physically played against something else, it's about what's going on inside the head of the player and in that respect Vinnie is awesome. Even people new to drumming can develop the mechanics of say playing fast doubles with the feet, but developing that awareness of time, rates, polyrhythms that takes a lot longer.
This should be the last post on this subject ;)

[kirk]

I would say what is going on in the head of Virg is extremely deep also and it is way beyond pithy doubles. Throw the doubles away if you like. I am sure there were a few other reason's that certain drummer's were drawn to Virg. You think? It does not take much listening to figure that out, if one has actually listened. Now it can be the last post. ;)

[Funkifized]

My honest opinion is that Vinnie is more skilled in the musicality department. This guy's a freakin genius. He may not have uber chops but that doesn't matter all the time. In a drum battle or duet, what I look out for is how musical the phrasing is. Vinnie has played with the very best of the fusion/rock/pop/jazz players out there, and to say that anyone that has better 'feel' and sense of musicality than him is a very hard line to back up.

I'm not saying Virgil can't do what Vinnie did, but til this point I haven't heard Virgil play something like Sting's Ten Summoner's Tales album with such class and taste. It's not about the complexity of the strokes or the coordination or whatever ALL the time, man. It's about making music.

[ataraxia]

Was Vinnie 22 when he played on Joe's Garage? I read that somewhere. Crazy!

[frank]

"It's not about the complexity of the strokes or the coordination or whatever ALL the time, man. It's about making music."

True. BUT, I think Virgil never lays back because he never wants to! I'm sure he could (really!), but to me,Virgil is great for his incredible chops and the amazing things he pulls off. That's what I love about him. If he would start playing on Sting albums and such, I wouldn't buy those cd's, unless there's some innovative playing on them.

Besides that, listen to Joel Hoekstra's albums. Virgil's playing there...that's Virgil playing tastefully, AND doing some freaky stuff too! Heck, I still play The Moon Is Falling frequently!

[Matthias]

He does keep himself in the background so to speak on Freakhouse. And he plays for the music with SS and RoF too! And on Hoekstra's LA zoo he isn't doing the fancy stuff all the time either! Or on the Alfie-Songs...!

So... :D

[frank]

I don't think RoF is a good example.. listen to Invisible Man! :)

[Matthias]

Yes, of course it's quite complex rock music so to speak :) , but there isn't constant showing off or something. A lot of straight things too, that "just ROCK". Means he can also play for the feeling, not just for the brain ;) !

[frank]

Yeah you're right.. (damn Mark Boals with his annoying voice! I hate his singing!!)

[ataraxia]

Virgil's playing on Vai's Astoria DVD is pretty damn tasteful if you ask me. Although those aren't his songs, or drum parts that he's written, he really sits back and grooves on some of those tunes. Especially Fire and Little Wing, which I think are awesome songs. And Jibboom, Dave's Party Piece. Having said that he lets rip in places, when necessary; Incantation being an obvious example. I think his playing in that show firmly puts to rest the 'lack of feel' arguement, which is so often levelled at Virg but some critics, who don't really get what he's doing.

And if he can't groove, then why did he replace Dennis in CAB? I mean, Dennis is considered to have one of THE deepest pockets in the international drumming world. He's considered a reference point whenever anyone talks feel. And Virgil was chosen as his replacement. Obviously Bunny Brunel can spot a drummer with groove from a mile off.

And as a side not, A Little Green Rosetta is sick.

[Matthias]

Amen to that :D !!!

Yeah you're right.. (damn Mark Boals with his annoying voice! I hate his singing!!)

The same with James LaBrie:). But whatever, James belongs to Dream Theater. and so does Mark I suppose. (I do prefer James though)

[toteman2]

Virgil's playing on Vai's Astoria DVD is pretty damn tasteful if you ask me. Although those aren't his songs, or drum parts that he's written, he really sits back and grooves on some of those tunes. Especially Fire and Little Wing, which I think are awesome songs. And Jibboom, Dave's Party Piece. Having said that he lets rip in places, when necessary; Incantation being an obvious example. I think his playing in that show firmly puts to rest the 'lack of feel' arguement, which is so often levelled at Virg but some critics, who don't really get what he's doing.

And if he can't groove, then why did he replace Dennis in CAB? I mean, Dennis is considered to have one of THE deepest pockets in the international drumming world. He's considered a reference point whenever anyone talks feel. And Virgil was chosen as his replacement. Obviously Bunny Brunel can spot a drummer with groove from a mile off.

And as a side not, A Little Green Rosetta is sick.

The reason people attack Virgil (on feel and groove) is because all they see on the internet is clips of mindboggling chops and independence. They are ignorant to almost all of his work. You don't replace Chambers in CAB is you have not mastered time, feel, and groove. And you don't show up at clinics all over the world and explain "groove" and "the development of groove", and then demonstrate it to standing ovations.

[sandstrom]

i get sad when someone here says that vinnie isn't as rythmically advanced as virgil, mangini, lang and minnemann. don't get me wrong i LOVE most of there playing... but FOR ME vinnie is the king, also in that department.

[filus]

Once upon a time, Vai called Vinnie and gave him some nice drum parts to record for his new songs. Bozzio was standing there. When Bozzio saw Vinnie playing them at first sight (and registering of course), adding nicer and "sweeter" things...ehm..at this point Bozzio ran away..and closed his relationship with Vai.

I mean..Vinnie is absolutely great..he gots groove, musicality, sweetness, feeling..listen to "seven days"..or "gli angeli" by Vasco Rossi...it's a straight 4/4 but..OMG...i'd give whatever I have to play a 4/4 that way!

[peter]

Vinnie is great!
Virgil is great!

V for Vinnie.
V for Virgil.

I don't see the problem. ;)

[sandstrom]

My honest opinion is that Vinnie is more skilled in the musicality department. This guy's a freakin genius. He may not have uber chops but that doesn't matter all the time.


HA HA HA... I liked the way you wrote about vinnie except for that... I don't know if you have listen to the mans chops. vinnie got the best chops of all time, I just had to write this, sorry if you guys don't agree:)

pls buy for example document by karizma so I don't have to explain:)

[Funkifized]

well, you have to understand that the definition of chops in a place such as this is much more far-out than mind-boggling metric modulation, blazing 32nd note fills and creative use of chops in a musical situation.

It becomes something more about the physical side of drumming. crazy layered rudimental grooves, tom rolls, double bass barrage and bizarre grooves are what people talk about here.