View Full Version : Double bass drum speed
frank
05-31-2003, 05:18 AM
Hey guys.
I was just wondering, at what speed can you play your double bass drums? Dog Boots is at about 200 (x4=800 bassdrums in a minute! sick..) I guess..
My limit is at about 170, just single strokes,.. I'll probably never understand how to play double strokes I guess.. any tips on how to practice that?
What is your speed limit on the bassdrum? And is it possible to play Dog Boots with just single strokes? I've seen death metal/speed metal bands play at insane speeds with single strokes..
And has anyone ever heard of Nichlas Barker from Dimmu Borgir? I don't know if he plays single or double strokes but his speed is just rediculous! I'm not even sure if he plays all the stuff or if a computer is playing along or something. I've seen a Dimmu Borgir DVD once, just to see his feet, but they never focus on it.. kind of strange.. And watching that DVD was terrible, their music is just plain ugly!
Once you get into it there are tons of metal drummers capable of doing single strokes at ridiculous speed. The most insane I know of are:
1. Derek Roddy. Newest and fastest release is "King of all Kings" with the band "Hate Eternal". 16th notes at up to 250 bpm and he is almost 100% tight all the way. Also played with Divine Empire.
2. Reno Killerich (Dane! :o). Going around 230 Bpm most places on the album "Berzerker Legions" from danish band "Exmortem". He IS 100% tight all the way, and he can clear start and stop this whenever he wants.
3. Hmmm...so many to choose from. Pete Sandoval from "Morbid Angel" of course...
4. Gene Hoglan of Death, Strapping Young Lad and more. Very good drummer - not doing anywhere near as much burst/blast-beat as the previously mentioned.
Too many to mention..... Sean Reinert, Richard Christy, Marco Minneman, many many many more....and then ofcourse Virgil, who I must admit speedwise is not on par with at least the likes of Derek Roddy and Reno Killerich but when it comes to finesse he's no.1....and he's not slow either.... :p
Then there is this "Drum can man" aka. Tim Waterson. He's been measured to play 1407 strokes in one minute, using doubles. That's 16th notes at about 350 BPM! But this guy is just weird - can't play drums at all - only speed records.
I don't really know of many others using doubles besides Virgil. Thomas Lang uses them and some have said that Joey Jordison of Slipknot does too, though I don't think it sounds like it....
I've been playing double bassdrum for about 8 years now, and it's been going up and down. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that what it takes is one hell of a lot of practice and maintenance! This really bugs me - why can't it just stay there once you've learned it?!?! Just like everything else drumming. I mean - sure you can get a bit rusty if you don't play for I while, but if you don't play bassdrums almost everyday you'll quickly lose it almost completely, I'm afraid....
I'm hoping that using doubles will be more maintenance free once learned, so I'm practicing that for now..... (I'll let you know when I break the 100BPM barrier LOL). It's not because I'm lazy and don't want to practice, it's just that I have this thing about owning and borrowing. I rather own stuff myself than borrow or rent it...
Oh well...what choice do I have. I also find that warming up helps immensely. When I'm not warmed up my top speed using singles is anywhere between 150 and 200, but if I spend 5-10 grizzly minutes of trying to do 210 (in these minutes it sounds AWFUL), I'll eventually get it and be able to do 200-220 in singles quite tight. Problem is if I rest for just 1-2 minutes I'll have to warm up again (more grizzly minutes) and this is where I feel that the singles strokes were only borrowed. If I were to do a song in which there would be fast single strokes about 2-3 minutes into the song - how the heck would I do that? Stop the song for a 5 minute warm up? Shoot!
I'm practicing my doubles with some of the excersizes Virgil shows on the Modern Drummer Festival 1997 video. I'm getting better, but I'm not playing Dog Boots tomorrow....By the way, there is this sickening, annoying 6-second clip in the beginning of the video with a 10-year old boy doing singles at like 190-200 BPM. Hmm...:mad:
Good luck!
/Frederik
frank
05-31-2003, 11:41 AM
Joey Jordison.. I saw him on MTV once, at a live performance or something.. I actually SAW his feet go at about 200 or maybe even 210.. he is one of the reasons I started wondering about single strokes at rediculous and insane speeds. A 10 year old doing singles at 190bpm? OMG is that possible?? Are you sure it wasn't a 40year old midget? :D
I've heard about that Berzerker-guy.. a friend of mine really likes his speed.. But I guess I should let him hear that 350bpm (?!?!? AARGH!!!! REDICULOUS!!!) Tim Waterson stuff. How on earth is it possible that someone who can play double strokes, which is a pretty difficult technique to learn, is not a good drummer? I mean, if you have enough time to practice that speed, why not practice everything else? :) About warming up.. I think it can help a lot, but on stage you usually don't have the time and ability to warm up. What would the crowd think? :D Anywayz, it could really help on recordings, but that would be a bit fake..
Oh well, I'm gonna practice some more.. ;)
DoubleBass_Rob
05-31-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by frank
How on earth is it possible that someone who can play double strokes, which is a pretty difficult technique to learn, is not a good drummer? I mean, if you have enough time to practice that speed, why not practice everything else? :)
Because it's ALL he practices, pure and simple.
jagdkommando
06-01-2003, 02:34 AM
Tim Waterson has a strange technique I think ... he uses this strange AXIS-Longboard which has bigger pedals. So he can use his heels to kick the drum or sth like that (I cannot remember at the moment) ... but there is a webpage, where Tim describes the technique of doubles he taught himself because he had an accident (with the car?!) and so playing singles hurt him too much. The webpage is easy to find via google I think.
By the way. I play drums for 12 years now. But I started using the double pedal 1,5 years ago. I always played with heels down. When I met Virgil in Italy I was so impressed by his power in the feet that I decided to totally change my foot-technique. So I started learning Virgil's technique (about 8 months ago).
The result now (after practising hard) is the following: 200bpm singles (very loud) and about 170bmp doubles (not as loud as singles - of course). About 140bmp I can do doubles rather loud.
It was strange: I practiced Virgil's Double-Stroke-Techn. and thought to give up, but suddenly I had a "click" in my head and I was able to play doubles 150-170bpm. Now I know that it works but I have to work hard to push the limit and to get louder.
You cannot believe how loud Virgil plays doubles. I heard him warming up in italy (before the soundcheck - without mics!!!). He played the doubles so fucking-loud that I thought he was playing singles. But he played doubles. And that is the thing I am fascinated most when thinking about Virgil's feet.
Regards
I do not know if anyone last year caught the live chat on Aural Moon, a prog music station with Virgil and Derek. It was hilarious the interviewer was a HUGE fan of Virgil and he kept on pressing Virg on how fast he could play doubles and singles outright. Virgil did everything to not let that become the focus of the chat, he was real gracious but finally after alot of prodding Virgil said basically I can go much faster than you hear most of the time. When he practices he goes for a minute or 2 and pushes it to see where he comes out, and this only matters if he does it with fluidity and consistency, as he said speed alone is not enough you got to make music with it. If I remember correctly he has no problem hitting close to 1100 strokes in a minute with consistency, pretty amazing.
Terry Bozzio said obviously Virgil has the best feet in the business,and that is not just speed of course, it is his overall command regarding all aspects, high praise.
Regards Kirk
He does play singal strokes just the same as most metal drummers. There are a couple of techniques I've been working with the past year. Nick Barker's is just straight arch foot all in the ankle. Pete "The Commando" Sandival uses a technique that some old man developed on the hands. They call him that because he plays in combat boots. I can't remember what it's called but you do 4 strokes for everyone coming back up. Easier shown than said. You should check out some Morbid Angel. Really good concepts for the style. Also the drummer from Hate Eternal. His name is Derek Rodey. He as this swivle ankle techique that I use all the time now.
When you doing just normal 16ths move your ankle's from side to side like there's two button on each side of the pedal just slightly. It helps keep your legs relaxed and loose and increases stamina by atleast about %25 I've noticed. It's kind of the same as Pete Sandival but less thought involved. If you ever want to chit chat drums on an IM I'm on MSN messanger. Hotmail address siwd@hotmail.com and my contact is SIWD. I've seen Dimu Borgir live with Nick Barker and once with another band called Borknigar. He's excellent. Definetly one of my original influences.
HEY what about the guy from Angle Corpse, he's now with Nile. That guy has to be the sickest of all. He's twice as insane live.
mauricio
06-01-2003, 07:07 PM
No offense intended, but I couldnīt care less about who plays faster doubles/singles on the bass drum. I mean, good for you if you can get up to 250bpm playing doubles. That shouldnīt make you a better drummer, nor a worse one. Iīm afraid this speed nonsense is taking the focus away from the really important, artistic drumming issues, like musicality, dynamics, time etc. etc., and by dynamics i donīt mean playing 200bpm doubles evenly. Quite the opposite actually - think of "smooth dynamic transitions". Thatīs one of the many things I like in Virgilīs playing, along with his fluidity and uncanny creativity.
Iīve never been a heavy/death metal fan, but I donīt have anything against those musical styles. What i canīt stand, even knowing that it may be the appropriate thing to do in those musical situations, is a guy pounding the drums as hard as possible all the way through. You know iīve really grown to like simpler, yet well executed stuff - iīm just watching Vinnie Colaiutaīs performance in the Modern Drummer Fest 2000 DVD and he just plays a MEAN crescendo single stroke roll in "Iīm Tweeked". To my ears, it really works in that musical context. He could have played the most bizarre polyrhythmic stuff instead of that single stroke roll, and it wouldnīt sound half as amazing as it does.
Please do not to miss the amazing drumming Virgil does while looking at how fast his feet can go. Thatīs just one (little IMHO) side of his unbeliavable ability. Thereīs so much going on in his playing that I almost find this speed discussion to be insulting to Virgilīs talent.
Fell free to post your hate-filled follow-ups towards me and my humble contribution to this thread. Actually Iīm kind of drunk as I write this, so donīt take it personally or too seriously.
drumwild
06-01-2003, 07:13 PM
I'm with Mauricio on this one...
While Virgil IS fast, there is no doubt that he also works on what it takes to craft a song. Otherwise, he would just be fast and his talent would not be of any pratical benefit to the music world in general.
Drumming is like riding a motorcycle... keep looking in one direction for too long and you're gonna hit the pavement.
I'll mess with speed when I'm doing my rudiments and practicing on my own time. But when I'm with the band, it's all about playing what's right for the song.
jagdkommando
06-01-2003, 11:02 PM
The title of the thread is "double bass drum speed" and frank wanted to discuss how fast we can play and what technique we use. So I discussed my endurance and technique. But I would never say that I am a better drummer because of this fact. Playing singles or doubles without breaks are boring if they last too long. polyrythmic double bass drum rythms are much more interesting, but the discussion started about our ability to play just singles and doubles. So I didn't want to discuss other techniques and rythms. This we can do I think in another thread.
I often realize that threads start at one point and always end in the same discussion that drumming is much more than "....". That I think we already know ... for me that is a thing that should be clear ... but I think threads concerning special techniques shouldn't always end in a "general" discussion about drumming. A special thread should help the topic-starter and of course us to learn sth new about the "special topic". In this case it is "speed" of the feet.
Good points on all accounts, on the one hand I TOTALLY agree with Mauricio on the fact that the amazing feet Virgil has "by the way his feet are very musical as well as fast",often become too much of the focus while what he is doing with his hands is as impressive if at times not more. And this reafirms the fact that the guy has so much going on that is amazing, that it is often very hard to take it all in. I know I have to listen and watch over and over to grasp all he is laying down, and that is testimony to his greatness.
But speed is an important aspect of drumming used in the right context which Virgil does. He can combine the speed with amazing creativity and dynamics because of the control he has over his instrument and this makes HIS speed appealing to me, it is not just BLATANT speed for the sake of speed and of course discussing it is cool, hopefully it will rub off on us that speed used in the right context and used innovatively and creatively is an enhancement to ones overall playing but speed by itself is pretty pointless.
regards Kirk
thats right kirk, in other words, he uses speed to create new sonorities on the drumkit, this is why he has a unique sound.
I was also amazed from reading this thread how hard it is to maintain even half the speed that Virg has with the feet! How come it isn't the same for the hands?
morgenthaler
06-02-2003, 07:12 AM
Note:
Joey Jordison actually praised Virgil (and Planet X) in modern drummer some time ago, in the "reflections" section.
mauricio
06-02-2003, 08:18 AM
Hey I didnīt mean to bash anyone or to say that this thread is useless. I myself thought, at the time that I wrote my previous post, that it would perhaps be a non-appropriated post, since the name of the thread is "double bass speed" under the "tips and techniques" section. So my apologies to Jagdkommando - youīre totally right, and YES, threads often start out as something and end up being about something else. In this case Iīm guilty of it myself.
That being said, I know that ALL of you agree with what I said in the previous (even though unappropriated) post. If you didnīt know that, you wouldnīt be interested in Virgilīs playing.
Also, as long as this thread focuses on the TECHNICAL REASONS why some people are faster/smoother than others, I would be very much interested. What I canīt comprehend is this competition-like stuff: A is faster than B, C is faster than B etc etc
I hope I have clarified some of the points I was trying to make.
Again, my sincere apologies for posting in the wrong section - although posting in this somewhat popular thread gave my humble post a few more readers than it would have gathered posted as a new topic.
jagdkommando
06-02-2003, 02:20 PM
there is nothing to apologize for ... I only wanted to say that sometimes the discussion could focus much more on the thread-title ... that would be very interesting. Because the discussion should also help ourselves to become better on the drums. We should exchange our experience on techniques. This would be very informative. This thread was started within the "tips and techniques section" so it would be cool to exchange tips :)
However we can also end in a Virgil-praying discussion :) :) :) that's always nice!
I neither like the competition-stuff like mauricio said because it makes no sense, because every drummer has his own style and his own speed ... and of course speed # speed. We all agree that Virgil is someone very particular and amazing, because he is able to unite all techniques and rythms. And every time everything is super-controlled.
So let's keep continuing the thread :)
Christopher
06-02-2003, 07:29 PM
Tim Waterson.
Yeah, I remember him. Me and Virgil just came back from my place cause he wanted to check his e-mail. 30 mins before the Masterclass he was gonna be doing, he goes up to me "Chris!! WE HAVE TO GO DUDE!!! We have to be at the Masterclasses in 30 MINS!!" So I carried Virgil on my shoulders and bolted down to the Drum Fest! We arrived just great! :)
The second we arrived, I noticed this guy with long hair and blue shoes. That was Tim Waterson. Most of the "fast" drummers were there: Johnny Rabb, Tim Waterson, Rick Gratton, etc.
Anyway, Virgil did his thing at the masterclasses and everybody loved it. At a certain point, I really HAD to take off early because I had to pick up some stuff, and this where I missed a lot of the action...thank god my brother was there to keep me filled in. He told me that Tim was talking to Virgil and eventually got to sit down at the kit Virgil was playing on. Apparently, he was doing double strokes at 250-260 or something insane like that. Virgil was like "wow, thats fast". And yes, he had a 'different' technique which made it all the more weirder for some people to understand.
Im known to miss these little things! :(
Here's an image of Tim at that masterclass. Sorry it's a little blurry. My camera sucked at the time! He's at the far left right next to the guy snapping a picture.
http://www.virgildonati.com/images/gallery/df2k/virg-masterclass01.jpg
morgenthaler
06-03-2003, 12:20 AM
Thomas Lang talked of a similar experience. In his MD interview he states: "Me and Virgil went down to this fastest feet competition, which some mistake for music". Well I think he nailed it pretty much with that one. Has Tim ever done a record?
Having said that I still wish I were a lot faster.... R-LL-RR-LL-RR......."DOH" ( I am slow)
frank
06-03-2003, 04:12 PM
Thanks for your replies, I find this stuff pretty interesting! It really is a shame that there are always people that have to make a competition out of drumming, but with bass drum speed, I don't really mind because there are actual records to break. Though anyone that can play 200 BPM or faster is great IMHO. I just have to say that I have far more respect for what Virgil does at 200 (or maybe faster) than what Nicholas Barker does at 250 BPM. With that I don't mean to disrespect Barker, but the independence and technique and power of Virgil just interests me a LOT more. of course Barker is one hell of a drummer.. oh well, I like Virgil better than anyone. :)
jonberg
06-05-2003, 03:07 AM
I think the term "Technique" is VERY misused along drummers.
Most drummers think if they are fast enough, they are good techniquall players...but technique is about control, and with control you can share your musical vision and make music. Me personally, is so tired of drummers practise to ONLY get fast...remeber, thatīs just MY opinion. When you reach to the point where you can execute you own ideas you are on the right track, of course, people who just wanna be fast can do that, but just listen to musical playing and incredible musical soloing of Steve Smith, you hear what he wants to say,literally,his phrases, technique,speed,musicality.....ALL of it sits togheter.
As the same goes for Vinnie Colaiuta, I recommend you to listen to the GRP record with Vinnie and Weckl, and also The Chick Corea live record from Japan with Vinnie on the drums...itīs PURE magic when Vinnie plays...all along, you hear his ideas and what he wants to say through his drums.
You know, there are LOTS of these guys, these are just a few.
Now to my point...
...Iīm really a HUGE fan Virgil, I constantly work on so much of his material and I think he is one of the greatest drummers of all time in terms of techniqually playing and in general expanding the limits on drums. I donīt want any to misunderstand me, Virgil is probably my biggest influence,well here I go...
...when you hear Virgil (for example) soloing, itīsamazing to see that unhuman preciseness and creativity, there ainīt anyone out there whose doing the things he does, but I miss the logical and musical soloing that can be done with the drums. He is doing his stuff, his licks, his ostinatos but there isnīt any logic in it...listen to his free form solo in MD 97, it goes back and forth from grooving and free form. The same goes for almost all of his solos that Iīve heard with Planet X, OTV, TUDW 2002 and so on.
I know that maybe this is the way Virgil wants to tell his story and thatīs great...I just miss the logic and the phrases that can be executed. He is one of the greatest human beings on eart in my opinion, but in terms of musicalilty (and Iīm talking about his solos,not his composing or grooving skills), he doesnīt approach Vinnie, Smith in the same way.
I would love to hear some response from this, just donīt misunderstand me.
frank
06-05-2003, 05:38 AM
I don't know, I really like Virgil's solo's!! I love them the most of all solo's I've ever seen! And if you watch closely and listen carefully, you will notice the logic.. It's very insane, but most of the time there IS logic!! He just makes complete insanity out of it, which is so freaking great and probably beyond understanding for all of us..
I understand what you are saying Jon, Virgil is more about taking complex pieces and stitching them together, ostinatos, interdependence grooves etc and then interchanging them moving from one to another then some free form thrown in there. Where as Vinnie and Smith solo more off of ideas from certain tunes or musical themes it is a totally different approach. BUT Virgil's soloing is absolutely logical, maybe more logical than the others but it is a different animal.
Vinnie and Steve and Weckl solo off of themes from songs all the time but they really are not as diverse(deep in their ideas) creative and complex in their approach, I have seen all those guys live and LOVE! all of them but when Virgil solo's at a clinic it is hey this guy is going up for an hour and is going to throw so many different pieces and ideas and techniques at us, when I have seen the others they play to distinct tunes or with bands then solo off the songs theme(and I LOVE it also). BUT you will see Virgil solo this way(same as the others) when playing with a band like CAB or even with Planet X especially off the song Quantum factor, in this context he is blowing over the main theme of every song with and without the band BUT tied to main musical theme that the band is laying down. Just a different approach but he can do it all VERY well. You have the Virgil, Lang, Minneman type of soloing going on then the Vinnie, Smith Weckl type very different approach but Virgil does both amazingly well, you just hear different soloing based on what the whole context is at the time.
Good points brought up by the way Jon. Nothing wrong with that!
Regards Kirk
jonberg
06-05-2003, 10:26 AM
Yeah,youīre right Kirk...itīs all about which approach they have.
I know that Virgil could do the other thing as well,so far I havenīt heard it, but I look forward to it :)
Anyway, I gotta tell you, listen to the Chick Corea Acoustic Band Live from Tokyo with Vinnie if you havenīt heard it.
When Chick and Vinnie trades 8īs on "Chasin the Trane" he really puts magic to the drums, itīs unbeliveble stuff...and my point is that I havenīt heard Virgil do anything near that...again, itīs about which approach one has.
My impression is that Virgil puts alot of energy on the visually stuff,like sticktwirling,backsticking etc. and that is so really fucking cool, because no one can do it like Virgil, but Vinnie makes the people go wild without any bombastic bassdrumfigure or cymbalshredding...
...in the same way,just to get it said, Vinnie isnīt near Virgil in some aspects either and I believe they are aware of that.
As I hear Virgil doing stuff on the TUDW and on Moonbabies-record (Ground Zero) that Marco Minneman has covered in his book "Extreme Interdependence",and also seing Virgil giving Marco credit for his work, I realize that these monsterdrummers donīt have huge egos or think that they are the best in the world...itīs a give and take,and these guys find inspiration in listening to each other...that way,we all will grow.
Maybe I just talk in the air, I just wanted to share this.
Keep on drumming everyone!!!!
I actually wore that recording out(vinnie with corea) it is wonderful I have alot of Vinnie's work, one of the absolute best drummers ever, I love his playing, one of my drumming heroes for sure. With Virgil I just experience a level of creativity, technique and power I find in no other drummer. His interdependence, his dexterity, power, energy, precision combined with insane creativity and he makes amazing music with it, his playing is very unique in the drumming world. A FEW guys have the insane interdependence and are real complex but they are not nearly as creative or musical or diverse IMHO as Virgil. Yet Virgil can jump on a gig like CAB or a funk gig or a metal gig or a prog gig and amaze just as well.
That is where I have to give him HUGE credit, he covers so much stylistic ground and does it all very well. I do not know another guy who can jump from metal to prog to jazz- fusion to pop to funk, and pull it all off then just go up on stage on his own without a song or band backing him and blow your socks off doing his own thing. And yes many of these guys are very humble and have great respect for eachother and show great comroderie in the drumming world and that is inspiring and commendable indeed. Vinnie loves Virgil's playing and so does Simon and Marco and weckl and so on etc. And it is the same likewise. It is funny but Vinnie and Weckl and Simon were 3 guys who years ago were raving about Virgil when many did not know who he was. No doubt that helped Virgil in becoming better known. Hats off to all those guys.
regards Kirk
jonberg
06-06-2003, 04:17 AM
Youīre totally right about that Kirk, I hope that I will hear some other things with Virgil soon...
...a different question:
How often do Virgil play in LA,like in the baked potatoe?
Is it regulary or just temporaly?
Cause Iīm going to start on an studiomusician-education in Sweden and the second year you go to USA (LA) to play in some studios for a season, and it would be great to see some of the hot guys play live.
I have never been to the states, Iīm really looking forward to it.
Maybe I see some of you guys :)
Cheers!!
frank
06-06-2003, 05:33 AM
I just have to reply. About to that solo stuff from Virgil.. Solo's during songs.. wow I just have to tell you guys about the live performance of "BITCH"... I saw that 2 times with the Donati/Bynoe/MacAlpine power trio tour, and I've heard it on a bootleg from PX... It's just so SICK what he does there!! The guys play the normal theme, but Virgil just switches tempo's on and on and on and after some time they just get back together!! The Quantum Factor is a little different. You have the insane *TATA*.....*TA*...*TA* *TA* *TA*...... *TATA*.. going on, and Virgil just brutally pounding his kit... it's SO COOL to hear what he does with QF.. (heard it live too, at the same gigs as I heard 'bitch'). I'm pretty curious to hear that as a studio recording!! At the bootleg of that song, which most people have I guess, you hear people actually laughing. Virgil's just crazy.. :)
Jon, it seems as though Virgil plays a fair amount at the potato.
If my memory serves me he has played with Planet X, Cab, T.
Lavitz, Fierabracci, Tom Kennedy, Weingart, Richmond, and a few others while performing at the potato and he does gigs periodically at M.I.(musicians institute) and is doing harder edged gigs with FreakHouse at other venues. He does some freelance gigs like with Mike Keneally(guitarist for Vai and Zappa).
Great story about Virg doing a gig with Keaneally and Bryan Beller( bass player) it was totally improv no rehearsal hardly even knew the guys and Virgil blows them away, Beller says Virg was the most amazing drummer he has ever played with. He said it was like playing with Weckl, Vinnie ,Mangini and Tommy Aldridge ALL at the same time ALL the time. Can you imagine taking a gig like that(talk about nerves) then just flooring everyone. I read a number of reviews from the gig, people were just shocked! many never heard of Virg before and they were saying WHO IN THE HECK IS THIS GUY! he is insane. Another great VIRG story.
Regards Kirk
drumwild
06-06-2003, 11:52 AM
Yes, when he's in the area Virgil plays the Baked Potato quite frequently with the bands Kirk mentioned. A few buddies of mine used to tech for him.. and might still (shout-out to Jason B and Steve!). It's only a few blocks from my place, so I'm always headed there whenever Virgil is in town.
Sad to say that I've not caught any of Virgil's clinics, but I've seen him live many times. A spectacle to behold and a treat for the ears. Above all else, he truly loves the drums and it shows.
alencore
07-01-2003, 01:25 PM
hehe, finally a nice little place to re-learn the craft. i played drums for 10 years straight until i got burn out with it. but thnx to some drum friends who drag me in just to watch a Donati drum clinic here in the Phils, just rescently. and MY GOD, Virgil simply rule. Some tech glitches but still, his playing was is just monumental. Those double-pedal strokes but in RLLR groupings, man that's just inspiring.
so as far as speed on double bass is concern, i just do it like a sprinter would do by simply pore it all down. it's totally out of control but heck the speed is just amazing afaic. really great for closing fills on songs. i lost weight doing those shit during those heavy gigging days i had in the 90's.
but ever since i started riding my bicycle seriously gaining approximately 15,000 miles at the moment i went back one day on my old drums and started pounding away and wow i can hold my so called "double bass sprints" a lot longer and even solo over it. the speed is almost like that song of metallica, Battery, if my upper limbs tries to catch the ongoing battery below with the backbeats and stuff, LOL.
anyway speed on double bass drumming if approach athletically do work. besides almost anyone who plays drums can do the 'double bass sprints' even this pesky neighbor who's a guitar player done it on my face once, lol. hehe, reminded me how James would tease Lars, but Lars can hold it much much much longer while Virgil made these things sounds much more musical and sweet.
Huge tnx Virgil for visiting our country and showing us what drumming is all about imho, to have FUN. hehe, you forgot to say it but it's there.
drumsRlife
07-07-2003, 06:25 AM
I am a fan of Tim Waterson ever sense I saw him do a record at the worlds fastest drummer event last year. Yes! he is fast but he also plays with a band. I don't think there is anything wrong with building speed especially if you like playing faster style of music.
Who are we to tell these speed guys how fast they can play? That's silly! There is no speed limit in drumming. I find the wfd thing to be a great deal of fun to watch and admire al of the work these guys and girls have put into building their techniques to such an insane level.
I may never be a Tim Waterson or Derek Roddy but these speed records do inspire me to practice and try to better myself. Not beat them but better myself.
It would be a shame if we as drummers outlawed the speed contest and put limits on what we as drummers could accomplish.
Love this site and it willingness to discuss with such openness topics such as double bass speed for it is an important topic to certain styles of music.
alencore
07-07-2003, 12:29 PM
hehe, those drummers sounded more like athletes bec. of the quest of db speed within a band which is cool.
drumsRlife
07-08-2003, 04:02 AM
The speed drumming guys are athletes. They have their own Championship belt and everything. Gaudy but cooooooooolll!!!!
alencore
07-10-2003, 10:50 AM
I say, once I learned how to play "the Rosanna beat" . That groovy half-time shuffle, by Jeff Porcaro, i got less double bass speeding tickets from my bandmates, LOL!
The ability to go 16th's at 350 is quite something...but are you ever going to come to a point where you can use it in a song? IT seems pointless for someone to only focus on that so tehy can go that fast.
This may have been said or something similar, I didn't read the second or third page hehe.
Tschau
alencore
07-11-2003, 05:00 AM
yeah almost the 6th time now, lol. well, db speed are still useful for live stuff fills finales or within a speed metal band. unfortunately those kind of music gets tiring in the long run. of course the young drummers will get a kick at it and soon they will attemp to play Rosanna, hahaha.
DeadBodyMan
07-14-2004, 07:22 PM
This is my oppinion, Drumming is not about speed, it is not about teqnique. It is about music. Sure you have to learn, but if you spend all your time learning someone elses teqnique, you cant be original. I am 23, and my uncle got me started when I was 7. I didnt start on a kid set, I started cranking out beats in a full size Pearl 5 pc. Now I still play a 5 piece w/ only 3 cymbols, a hat, and a double bass pedal. Any more than that, and my style will be lost in the kit. I am not saying dont practice. I am just sayin play your way, not someone elses. For example, personally, I never use the same fill twice in a song, even if its a cover. Fills should be uniqe. I use triplets and quads going into crecendos, for added "oomph," and crowds love it. Whatever your style, find it and stick with it. Thats how people will remember you.
DerNeue
07-15-2004, 01:45 AM
I think there can be a use of playing 16th notes at 300 bpm. It allows you to play everything between 130 and 200 bpm much more relaxed, doesn't it?
I think this could be a goog application. It is not a must be, but if you can do it --> fine!
peter
07-15-2004, 07:52 AM
Anything is good, if you can use it in a tune
and make more of it. Other than that, I find
it hard to justify as a focus, on its own.
I like to apply what I can do in terms of
speed. I was just talking about this to some-
one. While I can do this, what good does it
do me if I can't use it in a tune?
www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops18.mp3
On the other hand, there is value in building
up one's muscles so that they can perform
slower tempos more gracefully or to coin a
phrase - play more 'tunefully'.
blueturnswhite
07-16-2004, 11:11 PM
thats hauling ass there peter...shit guys i think i can play singles at about 160...i suck..but the way i figure it, if my guitar players cant keep up then i am doing ok....ahhahah
Lucius
07-17-2004, 03:29 AM
My question is, why does someone suck because their tempo isnt past 200...?
Jesse
07-17-2004, 06:38 AM
Hi folks.
Yes, there are some unbelievable double bass drum players out there. I spoke with Virgil at a clinic he did for the Long Island Drum Center last year and he told the eager audience that - and please don't quote me - that he is more comfortable playing doubles than singles.
It all depends on the application. Think singles and doubles with your hands. What can you play faster? Can you play double strokes and rudiments more comfortably with your hands than singles with accents? I know feet may not respond the same as hands at first because of anatomical differences (not in Virgil's case), but you can train your feet to play rudiments, and switch between them on the fly. Virgil also told me when I asked him that playing 2 bass drums or 1 with a double pedal does not make a difference. That's control! And his doubles now are so much more crisp than on "Dog Boots." That's practice.
What I've done to get my left foot (righty drummer) up to par is to play beats and fills with hands and left foot only, not using my stronger right foot. I do this live also when I'm confident that I can play seemlessly. How many of you guys and gals out there can do doubles with your stronger foot with ease? Well, the same can be true of your other foot. Perseverance and patience are the keys. Always start slow with any rudiment until it is crisp and you have control, then increase the tempo.
I practice my usual stuff, then go to playing along with a metronome or basic beats using my left slave pedal until I feel comfortable and my ankle doesn't burn. I also switch between my left pedal and hi-hat to train my leg to have movement. I have also moved my righty bass drum to the left and bought a lefty double pedal so that I can maximize the pedal action. It seems to work better, my right foot adjusting to the slave just fine because it can adjust to "another" pedal faster, my left foot playing a direct "master" pedal with more direct action. I now feel more comfortable playing doubles, flams and singles with my feet. I sat on my kit with my left foot on the right pedal to see the difference before I bought the pedal. If your local drum store has one in stock, you may want to try it out to see if it makes a difference. The prices should be the same for the left as for the right.
Remember that when you first picked up the sticks and you weren't able to do the things you can now (with the exception of Buddy). Spend 15 minutes a day if possible - or any time you can - (30% of something is better than 100% of nothing) just doing alternate doubles with one hand and your weaker foot, and try to play along with a song employing them. Or play slow doubles with your feet instead of singles. Sit at work or home or dinner or school practicing. Every little bit adds up and you'll soon see the difference.
Take care and all the best, Jesse.
PolyOstinato
09-09-2004, 11:26 PM
Very nice, Peter. Those were doubles?
alencore
09-10-2004, 10:04 AM
that was truly such a recall jesse. well written indeed.
as for me well atleast at this moment in time ...i don't need overwhelming fancy drum chops...just the practical ones thank you. i don't even practice drums instead i play more guitar and try to learn more on harmony and songwriting. that "eugene's trick bag" guitar solo makes me nuts and still can't play as fast as steve vai did. but then again it still impresses some friends when i play it at my own comfy pace.
if i want speed...i go out and ride my bycicle and race whoever wants to on on the open road. and boy speed thus count big time in this realm.
peter
09-10-2004, 11:56 AM
Hey, that little thing wasn't applied in a musical
situation and so it is not nearly as important to
develop. Another thing is that, being mostly
doubles, you'll find it harder to place those in
a musical situation.
It was just a practice routine that you might
find useful, helping you split singles and doubles
on the same foot and from foot to foot.
Virgil stressed singles at the master class and
for a reason. I think that doubles are easier on
your legs and while it's good to have them, we
base everything on a good set of singles, top
and bottom, so don't forget them.
As for the speed, it doesn't matter. If you can
get to 160-180 and clean, you are where you
will be ready to use it in just about any situat-
ion and that's what really matters.
These samples mean more to me than that pre-
vious one because they're applied.
For doubles:
www.thediametrixletter.com/VisibleManx.mp3
A Singles application, out of the Intro:
www.thediametrixletter.com/bomba2.mp3
Application. That's where it's at and without
hurting the music.
Pete
D. Slam
09-10-2004, 12:10 PM
No offense intended, but I couldnīt care less about who plays faster doubles/singles on the bass drum. I mean, good for you if you can get up to 250bpm playing doubles. That shouldnīt make you a better drummer, nor a worse one. Iīm afraid this speed nonsense is taking the focus away from the really important, artistic drumming issues, like musicality, dynamics, time etc. etc., and by dynamics i donīt mean playing 200bpm doubles evenly. Quite the opposite actually - think of "smooth dynamic transitions". Thatīs one of the many things I like in Virgilīs playing, along with his fluidity and uncanny creativity.
Iīve never been a heavy/death metal fan, but I donīt have anything against those musical styles. What i canīt stand, even knowing that it may be the appropriate thing to do in those musical situations, is a guy pounding the drums as hard as possible all the way through. You know iīve really grown to like simpler, yet well executed stuff - iīm just watching Vinnie Colaiutaīs performance in the Modern Drummer Fest 2000 DVD and he just plays a MEAN crescendo single stroke roll in "Iīm Tweeked". To my ears, it really works in that musical context. He could have played the most bizarre polyrhythmic stuff instead of that single stroke roll, and it wouldnīt sound half as amazing as it does.
Please do not to miss the amazing drumming Virgil does while looking at how fast his feet can go. Thatīs just one (little IMHO) side of his unbeliavable ability. Thereīs so much going on in his playing that I almost find this speed discussion to be insulting to Virgilīs talent.
Fell free to post your hate-filled follow-ups towards me and my humble contribution to this thread. Actually Iīm kind of drunk as I write this, so donīt take it personally or too seriously.
Guys, I think we should take a deep breath and relax a bit. I'm quite sure that everyone here realizes that kick speed isn't the whole shabang. It just happens to be an area in drumming that the guys are talking about right now. It doesn't mean that anybody is losing focus on drumming as a whole. The subject just happens to be foot speed at this particlar time.... What's the problem, and why does it have to be labeled as nonsense??? :confused:
Don.
D. Slam
09-10-2004, 12:25 PM
Guys, I think we should take a deep breath and relax a bit. I'm quite sure that everyone here realizes that kick speed isn't the whole shabang. It just happens to be an area in drumming that the guys are talking about right now. It doesn't mean that anybody is losing focus on drumming as a whole. The subject just happens to be foot speed at this particlar time.... What's the problem, and why does it have to be labeled as nonsense??? :confused:
Don.
Guys, I wrote this right after reading Mauricio's first post. He has since re-reflected. I saw it later. Please disregard and except my humble apology.
Don. :o
AshefieldDrums
09-10-2004, 08:20 PM
A bit late in the thread but somone turned me on to Grant Collins a few weeks ago. This guy is awesome, I knew about him for a long time but I just thought he was the Bozzio of the southern Hemisphere (he's from Melbourne Austrailia). But if you have seen the Thomas Lang DVD set you have seen him play doubles with the feet then instert accents while playing doubles. I hadn't noticed Virgil ever do that before so I was impressed. But Grant Collins is insane with his speed, accuracy and sheer ability to put accents whereever he wants and I mean CLEAR accents while playing doubles and singles. JUST like a maching snaredrummer would.
here are some links to this insanity
http://grantcollins.com/videos/will_coxon.WMV
http://grantcollins.com/videos/three_campsH.WMV
these are from his website and he's only playing double bassdrums here. They are his "solo bassdrum pieces" incredible.
peter
09-10-2004, 09:45 PM
AD - Grant is an awesome player. There is
no doubt. He shows us an approach used
normally for the hands, for the feet.
His mixing of doubles, with singles, make
for the accents that you hear. This is
something that you can do and is really
worth working on.
Virgil can do exactly what you heard.
Don't worry about that. ;)
skin snapper
09-11-2004, 01:47 AM
I would like to just say several things about double kick drumming, not necaserily double bass :P.
- Get fit, I know, it seems pointless but i swim twice a week and i try to run every other morning, oh and every morning i do 50 situps (for the ladies, lol)
You wouldn't believe the advantage having good cardiovascular abilities are when you're trying to work on a really hard hitting double kick work.
- Speed isn't everything, the second i got the double kick, i went off like crazy, within 5 minutes i was bored and i started trying to work my feet and hands in time with a metrenome, like this
Floor tom (right hand) - left foot - right foot - left foot.
Snare(left hand) - right foot - left foot - right foot.
and then doubles of course.
The point i'm making is speed is useless unless it's controlled speed, it's like having a racing car without a brake!
- After getting into shape and building up some strength and CONTROL i started putting it into a beat
1---2---3---4---
r l r lrl rl rlr rl
with the snare on 2 and 4, even know i can't play it fast but it's not speed metal it's kinda funkey and groovey not just speed, this in my opinion is the goal of double kick.
- Of course there's the speed youy get from this control, with more control comes more muscles with more control and muscle comes speed, CONTROLLED speed, like for instance i'm only 13 and i can at about 175 comfortabley hold a nice reasonabley firm double kick beat for 3+ minutes and doubles at around 130 all of this is of course with a beat form to it, although doubles aren't fast, they're rapidly speeding up.
What i'm trying to say is, there's a reason the drumming gods gave us rudiments, TO LEARN THE BASICS, even with that kinda speed, i still practice doubles at 100bpm with a kinda funky hi-hat beat over it because it's musical but the feet are mainting a nice rudimentary feeling.
even virgil probably still practices paradiddles, you need to have and maintain a firm base to build on.
- play with accents, learn to make it musical, and you can still play long speedey double kick and have it musical look at pwitl it's one of my fav virgil things, because it's a cool song as well as stupidly tallented feet.
I guess in summary, speed is important, but useless if it isn't controlled enough to be made into music.
D. Slam
09-12-2004, 04:26 PM
I would like to just say several things about double kick drumming, not necaserily double bass :P.
- Get fit, I know, it seems pointless but i swim twice a week and i try to run every other morning, oh and every morning i do 50 situps (for the ladies, lol)
You wouldn't believe the advantage having good cardiovascular abilities are when you're trying to work on a really hard hitting double kick work.
- Speed isn't everything, the second i got the double kick, i went off like crazy, within 5 minutes i was bored and i started trying to work my feet and hands in time with a metrenome, like this
Floor tom (right hand) - left foot - right foot - left foot.
Snare(left hand) - right foot - left foot - right foot.
and then doubles of course.
The point i'm making is speed is useless unless it's controlled speed, it's like having a racing car without a brake!
- After getting into shape and building up some strength and CONTROL i started putting it into a beat
1---2---3---4---
r l r lrl rl rlr rl
with the snare on 2 and 4, even know i can't play it fast but it's not speed metal it's kinda funkey and groovey not just speed, this in my opinion is the goal of double kick.
- Of course there's the speed youy get from this control, with more control comes more muscles with more control and muscle comes speed, CONTROLLED speed, like for instance i'm only 13 and i can at about 175 comfortabley hold a nice reasonabley firm double kick beat for 3+ minutes and doubles at around 130 all of this is of course with a beat form to it, although doubles aren't fast, they're rapidly speeding up.
What i'm trying to say is, there's a reason the drumming gods gave us rudiments, TO LEARN THE BASICS, even with that kinda speed, i still practice doubles at 100bpm with a kinda funky hi-hat beat over it because it's musical but the feet are mainting a nice rudimentary feeling.
even virgil probably still practices paradiddles, you need to have and maintain a firm base to build on.
- play with accents, learn to make it musical, and you can still play long speedey double kick and have it musical look at pwitl it's one of my fav virgil things, because it's a cool song as well as stupidly tallented feet.
I guess in summary, speed is important, but useless if it isn't controlled enough to be made into music.
"I guess in summary, speed is important, but useless if it isn't controlled enough to be made into music."
Good point Skin! In my opinion, it's the very thing that makes Virgil the very best at this. He makes it all so musical and does it with so much feel.
Don.
alencore
09-15-2004, 11:41 AM
ain't it fun when you play rock n roll by led zeppelin and do the last ending drum fills with all the speed and chops you can blast away on hands and feet in about 15 secs or so?
hehe...so at that moment speed and loudness do helps.
JOEY JORDISON
03-11-2005, 01:04 AM
Once you get into it there are tons of metal drummers capable of doing single strokes at ridiculous speed. The most insane I know of are:
1. Derek Roddy. Newest and fastest release is "King of all Kings" with the band "Hate Eternal". 16th notes at up to 250 bpm and he is almost 100% tight all the way. Also played with Divine Empire.
2. Reno Killerich (Dane! :o). Going around 230 Bpm most places on the album "Berzerker Legions" from danish band "Exmortem". He IS 100% tight all the way, and he can clear start and stop this whenever he wants.
3. Hmmm...so many to choose from. Pete Sandoval from "Morbid Angel" of course...
4. Gene Hoglan of Death, Strapping Young Lad and more. Very good drummer - not doing anywhere near as much burst/blast-beat as the previously mentioned.
Too many to mention..... Sean Reinert, Richard Christy, Marco Minneman, many many many more....and then ofcourse Virgil, who I must admit speedwise is not on par with at least the likes of Derek Roddy and Reno Killerich but when it comes to finesse he's no.1....and he's not slow either.... :p
Then there is this "Drum can man" aka. Tim Waterson. He's been measured to play 1407 strokes in one minute, using doubles. That's 16th notes at about 350 BPM! But this guy is just weird - can't play drums at all - only speed records.
I don't really know of many others using doubles besides Virgil. Thomas Lang uses them and some have said that Joey Jordison of Slipknot does too, though I don't think it sounds like it....
I've been playing double bassdrum for about 8 years now, and it's been going up and down. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that what it takes is one hell of a lot of practice and maintenance! This really bugs me - why can't it just stay there once you've learned it?!?! Just like everything else drumming. I mean - sure you can get a bit rusty if you don't play for I while, but if you don't play bassdrums almost everyday you'll quickly lose it almost completely, I'm afraid....
I'm hoping that using doubles will be more maintenance free once learned, so I'm practicing that for now..... (I'll let you know when I break the 100BPM barrier LOL). It's not because I'm lazy and don't want to practice, it's just that I have this thing about owning and borrowing. I rather own stuff myself than borrow or rent it...
Oh well...what choice do I have. I also find that warming up helps immensely. When I'm not warmed up my top speed using singles is anywhere between 150 and 200, but if I spend 5-10 grizzly minutes of trying to do 210 (in these minutes it sounds AWFUL), I'll eventually get it and be able to do 200-220 in singles quite tight. Problem is if I rest for just 1-2 minutes I'll have to warm up again (more grizzly minutes) and this is where I feel that the singles strokes were only borrowed. If I were to do a song in which there would be fast single strokes about 2-3 minutes into the song - how the heck would I do that? Stop the song for a 5 minute warm up? Shoot!
I'm practicing my doubles with some of the excersizes Virgil shows on the Modern Drummer Festival 1997 video. I'm getting better, but I'm not playing Dog Boots tomorrow....By the way, there is this sickening, annoying 6-second clip in the beginning of the video with a 10-year old boy doing singles at like 190-200 BPM. Hmm...:mad:
Good luck!
/Frederik
You forgot 1 person who should be at the top Joey jordison from slipknot.....
Matthias
03-11-2005, 08:57 AM
I don't really know of many others using doubles besides Virgil. Thomas Lang uses them and some have said that Joey Jordison of Slipknot does too, though I don't think it sounds like it....
Don't know if you really are Joey Jordison or not, but anyway you didn't read carefully...!!
cjcdrums
03-11-2005, 09:03 AM
Yeah, he's definately not the actual Joey Jordison. Who, by the way, does not belong on that list of fastest players. The fastest I've ever heard his feet was about 210 bpm.
I'm sorry to say that I hate Joey Jordison... Hum sorry... Whatever... I agree that he does not belong on that list... Sorry again...
dave wilkinson
03-11-2005, 10:12 AM
i know this isnt post releveant at all, even though seeing a user called joey jordison and hearing lots of conflict about his bass drum speed etc, i listened to the song Slipknot - confessions and have been doing so for a while, and for the drums i think it sounds fantastically in place, for the people that do somewhat say this man can only play metal, he does somewhat seem to have a different feel for his music in this song i heard
cjcdrums
03-11-2005, 10:39 AM
Well, I for one am not ashamed of liking Jordison, I mean, he does have his quirks and all, but I tend to enjoy the new album. I think the reason everyone is hopping on the "bash Joey Jordison" bandwagon is the same reason everyone does it with Portnoy. They are both over-hyped drummers that most people who don't know any better assume are "the best" and when that happens, those of us who do know better want to show off our "superior" knowledge. I used to be one of these elitest know-it-all drum snobs who just bash good drummers to look knowledgable, but after a while the novelty has worn off. I can admit I wholeheartedly like Joey, and Mike Portnoy, and many of the drummers that us "elite" drummers tend to bash. So what if their technical ability is nowhere near as advanced as Mike Mangini or Thomas Lang? Who cares? I like their drumming for what it is, and at the same time I can still appreciate the Derek Roddy's and Marco Minnemann's of this world.
IronCobraMan
03-11-2005, 07:29 PM
booooo jordison....
vdreignsuponus1
03-11-2005, 10:23 PM
joey jordinson was my idol back when i first started playing. i was big into death metal so i loved jordinson and lombardo! lombardo's actually the one that got me out of death metal with his vivaldi: the meeting album. very amazing album!
joey is a hell of a drummer, i must say! eh..im not sure if he should be "at the top of the list" but for the short guy he is, he has some talent! excellent feet as well!
Matthias
03-12-2005, 05:13 AM
those of us who do know better want to show off our "superior" knowledge. I used to be one of these elitest know-it-all drum snobs who just bash good drummers to look knowledgable, but after a while the novelty has worn off. I can admit I wholeheartedly like Joey, and Mike Portnoy, and many of the drummers that us "elite" drummers tend to bash.
well put!! agree.
Cjc,
The fact that I do not like Joey is just a question of personnal preference. He does well what he does, but I do not like his sound, his feel, etc... Just like some would not like Virg and prefer Mangini, or that kind of vibe. It's nothing to do with jealousy.
And for Portnoy, I think he is over estimated, I get shocked by people telling me he is a virtuoso. However, I respect him as a drummer and I think he is real good, I'd be so happy if I could play like him...
That being said, my point was only that Joey does not belong in the list of the fastest drummers.
vdreignsuponus1
03-12-2005, 01:00 PM
i sort of think he's a TAD bit overrated these days..
around here atleast..
Even the best can be overrated...
cjcdrums
03-13-2005, 12:51 PM
Cjc,
The fact that I do not like Joey is just a question of personnal preference. He does well what he does, but I do not like his sound, his feel, etc... Just like some would not like Virg and prefer Mangini, or that kind of vibe. It's nothing to do with jealousy.
And for Portnoy, I think he is over estimated, I get shocked by people telling me he is a virtuoso. However, I respect him as a drummer and I think he is real good, I'd be so happy if I could play like him...
That being said, my point was only that Joey does not belong in the list of the fastest drummers.
Sure! I wasn't talking about you at all, it just seems that some of us around here have no reason to dislike some of these great drummers and say it because they are trying to show that they know that these drummers are not the best. Does that make any sense?
Portnoy and Jordison are definately over-rated, but it's because they are much more mainstream than the true virtuosos. I think they are "gateway" drummers, so to speak. Before I ever heard of Derek Roddy or Pete Sandoval, I had a Slipknot CD. Before I ever heard of Planet X, I had 4 or 5 Dream Theater / Mike Portnoy videos on my computer. I think that people who are really passionate about drums will get into these guys first. I most of us at some point said to ourselves, "Wow, Mike Portnoy must be the best drummer in the world!"
That said, I still think that Jordison has awesome chops, just now I know that they aren't even close to guys like Derek Roddy. But I prefer Joey's style over Roddy's. Of course, I don't really enjoy extreme metal, so there you go.
cjcdrums
03-13-2005, 12:53 PM
Even the best can be overrated...
I don't think Thomas, Virgil, Marco, or Mike could ever be over-rated! Calling them aliens doesn't even really describe it! :D
I don't think Thomas, Virgil, Marco, or Mike could ever be over-rated! Calling them aliens doesn't even really describe it! :D
You just did it.
cjcdrums
03-13-2005, 03:06 PM
You just did it.
They disserve every iota of respect they get and then some. Look at how disproportionate the talent level is to the amount of kudos these drummers get. If I am overrating these guys, then so be it. No one else comes close. If you can't understand my point, I don't know what to say. Maybe you don't comprehend exactly how difficult their stuff is. That's what it sounds like.
bevs_joey
03-15-2005, 04:04 AM
anyone heared Raymond Herrera from Fear Factory? His double bass is insane!!!!!!! out of this world!!
I think you need to learn about Thomas Lang's, Grant Collins' and Virg's footwork before saying that Joey (in the other thread you mentioned Joey kickin' Virgils's but anyday) or Herrera are out of this world.
But I agree that Herrera has got an interesting style, and that the patterns he come up with are cool, also that his feet are fast... But please, check out the other guys a bit.
Go to www.grantcollins.com and check his videos for example.
Enjoy.
cjcdrums
03-15-2005, 11:02 AM
Yeah, are you lost, bevs joey? I believe you are looking for the Pearl Drummer's Forum, where everyone idolizes Joey Jordison. This is the messageboard where we bite our thumb at people like that, because we know that not only would Virgil utterly obliterate Joey with multiple limbs lost in unfortunate shmelting accidents, he could play more complex rudiments with his nostrils (musically, in a song) than all the death metal drummers of the world put together. Touche!
Let's at least help the dude find his way by introducing him to the virtuosos don't you think brother Cj ?
cjcdrums
03-15-2005, 01:58 PM
Yeah, you're right, brother Cj. Maybe I was a wee bit harsh.
vdreignsuponus1
03-15-2005, 03:32 PM
heh, and if not already known, i would like to be the first to introduce bevs joey to:
www.drummerworld.com
Yeah you know second thoughts, after reading the other thread were he insists on the fact that Joey is better that "old Virgil" (he deserves ā whack for that !) I don't think you were too hard...
And Vdr... You know he seems like a he's a bit lost... Well totally lost actually... Hum poor guy...
vdreignsuponus1
03-16-2005, 03:06 PM
well, i went through that love of joey jordinson phase when i was a beginner too! but, heh, that didnt last any longer than a month..so we must be patient..
a little shock therapy wouldnt hurt though!:D
Phobophile
03-20-2005, 01:12 PM
Tim Waterson, plays at unmatchable speeds (1031 bpm single strokes as well as 1407 double strokes) with his feet and as far as his hands he can play over 1000 notes in a minute, and he is definitely a good drummer. Flo Mounier is amazing with his speed as well, he's the best in metal.
dave wilkinson
03-20-2005, 05:46 PM
i think the problem is that everybody rates a drummer like joey jordsison, by exactly what others say, one person says, " joey jordison has insane feet" another guy gives an example of somebody faster or with better control and trys making a better example, and il admit when it comes too it id personally, rather listen too virgils feet from any record, simply because his sound surely matches his ability. but as i said, listen to some of the original mate feed kill repeat album slipknot did, he plays very different too this "duality" style music and newer slipknot, and it really does give you a different opinion, as i stated " confessions" is a very nice song too listen too, im not really trying to push forward or argue about drummers ability because people always make different points about different musicians too argue about. im just merely giving an example of better sounding playing from this artist, which is more clear and gives a good example of good sound and ability, its really nice too listen too and changes opinions a little, I think youd truely have too listen thouroughly too an artist before arguing over several different points of playing, rather than jumping straight in.
i am thinking, the next videos to buy on the list are, chapins speed control, and virgils power drumming, its now time too save pocket money :)
IronCobraMan
03-21-2005, 12:56 AM
listening to jordison when being a virgil fan...is like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth...
catch my drift?
cjcdrums
03-21-2005, 01:04 AM
listening to jordison when being a virgil fan...is like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth...
catch my drift?
lol.....................
bevs_joey
03-21-2005, 08:59 AM
i dont think you have heared the 'proper' joey jordison at his best. your all most likely rating him from his new stuff like duality, which admitedly is a pile of s**t. you wanna listen to some songs like 'eeore' and 'me inside' those songs are joey at his best. you wanna try and play 'eeore' thats wat you call endurance and stamina!!!
vdreignsuponus1
03-21-2005, 09:20 AM
dude, i used to be the hardcorist of slipknot fans back in the day. from the beginning! the best of their stuff! and i cant say im impressed anymore..
You know, I had (because I sold them) all their albums and DVD's, and I've listened quite a bit to Joey's stuff, at least enough to have an opinion about him...
And really speed and endurance... Thats probably all Joey has...
bevs_joey
03-21-2005, 12:52 PM
You know, I had (because I sold them) all their albums and DVD's, and I've listened quite a bit to Joey's stuff, at least enough to have an opinion about him...
And really speed and endurance... Thats probably all Joey has...
and with speed comes tallent! :D
Someone help me... Or him...
bevs_joey
03-21-2005, 12:55 PM
Someone help me... Or him...
why help you? lol
Cause you Joey fanastisme is driving me [sic] (I guess you'd get the catch).
bevs_joey
03-21-2005, 01:15 PM
Cause you Joey fanastisme is driving me [sic] (I guess you'd get the catch).
lol! nice use of pun there. IM not sayin Joey is the best in the world. just give him a little respect!! I know there are better drummers out there such as Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang, Dennis Chambers etc.
Joey Jordison is the man!!!! He would tear peices into virgil anyday!!And what is it with Nicholas Barker. Hes good and all but not that good!! Joey has loads of tallent. I mean hes not only the greatest dummer ever he also is the greatest guitarist!!
Say that again ?
cjcdrums
03-21-2005, 01:22 PM
lol! nice use of pun there. IM not sayin Joey is the best in the world. just give him a little respect!! I know there are better drummers out there such as Marco Minnemann, Thomas Lang, Dennis Chambers etc.
Funny how you should forget about someone who can do THIS: http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/highlights/highlights-tokyo82704_01.wmv
Damn you got there before me...
cjcdrums
03-21-2005, 01:26 PM
Okay, you got the next one!
Hell, that line suits your avatar perfectly.
bevs_joey
03-21-2005, 01:30 PM
Say that again ?
ok ok i took it too far sayin he was the "greatest drummer ever!"im sorry! :( but you cannot say he has no tallent. his footwork is incredable and pretty good hand speed as well. give him his due!!
cjcdrums
03-21-2005, 01:32 PM
He has no talent! His footwork smells and his hands stink!
I'll bet he'd have a hard time doing THIS: http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/g3soloend.wmv
His mask stinks too since he never washes it !
bevs_joey
03-21-2005, 01:53 PM
He has no talent! His footwork smells and his hands stink!
I'll bet he'd have a hard time doing THIS: http://www.virgildonati.com/videos/g3soloend.wmv
you stink! :p
dave wilkinson
03-21-2005, 02:23 PM
lol ah well, there is no getting a point across, this forum, is a one way road, i love it!!! hahahahha :)
vdreignsuponus1
03-22-2005, 11:06 AM
for now on, i think every post that replies to bev joey we should include the link to virgil's video section!:)
http://www.virgildonati.com/media_videos.php
cjcdrums
03-22-2005, 12:57 PM
Aye! Argghh!
bevs_joey
03-22-2005, 02:52 PM
hahahahahahaha
Phobophile
04-02-2005, 11:08 AM
Bev_Joey did not really say that Joey Jordison is also the greatest guitarist did he?
I fixed this post because I had mentioned about Jo Jo Mayer but I guess since in the beginning this thread was about double bass speed that would explain why no Jo Jo, as he play double strokes but only one foot. Just because there was a lot of talk on here about death metal drummers and such, I was reading an interview with Derek Roddy and also one with Flo Mounier and they both talked about how the creation of blast beat was really in the 50's with jazz drummers. I just found it interesting because alot of elitists on these drums boards sit there and talk down to metal drummers, but the great metal drummers like Flo Mounier were all influenced by and play jazz and study jazz. Now I am not trying to say that all metal drummers are like this but try not go generalize so much. Now with that I am also not saying that Lars Ulrich, for example, is a great drummer I am just trying to point out that they are not all Lars'. Yes I am a metal head, i like all the different sub genres encompassed within that genre, but after finding drummer world.com a year or so ago I learned about a lot of great drummers. Igor Cavalera of Sepultura is the guy who got me interested in drums and drummers, he is my favorite too but not because he is the best just because.
cjcdrums
04-02-2005, 01:30 PM
Bev_Joey did not really say that Joey Jordison is also the greatest guitarist did he?
Joey Jordison is the man!!!! He would tear peices into virgil anyday!!And what is it with Nicholas Barker. Hes good and all but not that good!! Joey has loads of tallent. I mean hes not only the greatest dummer ever he also is the greatest guitarist!!
I believe that should answer your question...
vdreignsuponus1
04-02-2005, 01:39 PM
im just grateful that he spelled "talent" wrong..;)
bevs_joey
04-02-2005, 03:06 PM
lol. ok hes not the greatest guitarist either. he does have tallent. he also has one of the most endurance from a drummer i have ever heared
vdreignsuponus1
04-02-2005, 03:15 PM
then i guess u havent heard a lot of GOOD drummers my friend!
Phobophile
04-02-2005, 08:03 PM
I just want to say that I like slipknot and I like joey as a drummer, so dont get the idea that I am a basher. I would say that you need to listen to more traditional metal bands to hear the truely talented guitarists, listen to Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Yngwie Malmsteen and guitarists of that nature, but in the end listen to whatever the hell you want because I cant stand when people tell me that the guy I really like "sucks ass".
I don't like Joey, he sucks ass :p
Phobophile
04-03-2005, 09:37 AM
I know you are just being a **** saying that right after my post but here is the thing I dont give a **** what you say. Say what you will, it doesn't mean **** to me.
Just a joke dude, no need to be rude and use the hard vocabulary.
Phobophile
04-03-2005, 10:06 AM
I know you are just being a **** saying that right after my post but here is the thing I dont give a **** what you or anyone else says. Say what you will, it doesn't mean **** to me.
Just a joke dude, no need to be rude and use the hard vocabulary?
vdreignsuponus1
04-03-2005, 10:14 AM
woah, double post!
Phobophile
04-05-2005, 08:56 AM
Just a joke dude, no need to be rude and use the hard vocabulary?
I know you were kidding. I just like to swear, but because I offended you I will try to refrain from now on. Hey what do you guys think of Thomas Haake (is he a hack or will he hack up other drummers? Now those are some bad ass puns) of Meshuggah? I really like Candiria's drummer Kenneth Schalk. I think they are a pretty cool ass band, I like the metal/hardcore stuff, the hip hop stuff and the jazz stuff. Schalk plays the trumpet and I think keyboards too(???), which is cool.
GreenPremier
04-05-2005, 09:09 AM
woah, double post!
No kidding! Das veird, yah?
Phobophile
04-08-2005, 12:58 PM
very weird, this is the third time I looked at this page and this is the first time I have even noticed it. crazyness is ensuing on this thread.
jakelwilliams
05-22-2005, 06:01 AM
Once you get into it there are tons of metal drummers capable of doing single strokes at ridiculous speed. The most insane I know of are:
1. Derek Roddy. Newest and fastest release is "King of all Kings" with the band "Hate Eternal". 16th notes at up to 250 bpm and he is almost 100% tight all the way. Also played with Divine Empire.
2. Reno Killerich (Dane! :o). Going around 230 Bpm most places on the album "Berzerker Legions" from danish band "Exmortem". He IS 100% tight all the way, and he can clear start and stop this whenever he wants.
3. Hmmm...so many to choose from. Pete Sandoval from "Morbid Angel" of course...
4. Gene Hoglan of Death, Strapping Young Lad and more. Very good drummer - not doing anywhere near as much burst/blast-beat as the previously mentioned.
Too many to mention..... Sean Reinert, Richard Christy, Marco Minneman, many many many more....and then ofcourse Virgil, who I must admit speedwise is not on par with at least the likes of Derek Roddy and Reno Killerich but when it comes to finesse he's no.1....and he's not slow either.... :p
Then there is this "Drum can man" aka. Tim Waterson. He's been measured to play 1407 strokes in one minute, using doubles. That's 16th notes at about 350 BPM! But this guy is just weird - can't play drums at all - only speed records.
I don't really know of many others using doubles besides Virgil. Thomas Lang uses them and some have said that Joey Jordison of Slipknot does too, though I don't think it sounds like it....
I've been playing double bassdrum for about 8 years now, and it's been going up and down. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that what it takes is one hell of a lot of practice and maintenance! This really bugs me - why can't it just stay there once you've learned it?!?! Just like everything else drumming. I mean - sure you can get a bit rusty if you don't play for I while, but if you don't play bassdrums almost everyday you'll quickly lose it almost completely, I'm afraid....
I'm hoping that using doubles will be more maintenance free once learned, so I'm practicing that for now..... (I'll let you know when I break the 100BPM barrier LOL). It's not because I'm lazy and don't want to practice, it's just that I have this thing about owning and borrowing. I rather own stuff myself than borrow or rent it...
Oh well...what choice do I have. I also find that warming up helps immensely. When I'm not warmed up my top speed using singles is anywhere between 150 and 200, but if I spend 5-10 grizzly minutes of trying to do 210 (in these minutes it sounds AWFUL), I'll eventually get it and be able to do 200-220 in singles quite tight. Problem is if I rest for just 1-2 minutes I'll have to warm up again (more grizzly minutes) and this is where I feel that the singles strokes were only borrowed. If I were to do a song in which there would be fast single strokes about 2-3 minutes into the song - how the heck would I do that? Stop the song for a 5 minute warm up? Shoot!
I'm practicing my doubles with some of the excersizes Virgil shows on the Modern Drummer Festival 1997 video. I'm getting better, but I'm not playing Dog Boots tomorrow....By the way, there is this sickening, annoying 6-second clip in the beginning of the video with a 10-year old boy doing singles at like 190-200 BPM. Hmm...:mad:
Good luck!
/Frederik
Hey, i am 13, (i let everyone know that so they dont think, what a loser, just starting double bass) anyways, i wanted to know how do you messure ur BPM? Cuz really it depends on what type of notes ur doing. If your doing 32nd notes, then its going to be harder to get ur BPM higher than if you were going by quarter notes. ttul JAKE
vdreignsuponus1
05-22-2005, 07:50 AM
jake, bpm is usually measured in 16ths. for example, when you hear someone on this board saying that they reached 200bpm with their feet, this person is saying that they held 16ths at 200bpm for a minute.
jakelwilliams
05-27-2005, 05:35 PM
jake, bpm is usually measured in 16ths. for example, when you hear someone on this board saying that they reached 200bpm with their feet, this person is saying that they held 16ths at 200bpm for a minute.
holly **** am i slow. lol. not really. i can get going pretty fast..guessing probly like 150-160 BPM then. idk for sure...i would have to get out my metranome and like a timer and friend to count R somthin. lol...theres probably an easier way isnt there? well, ttul JAKE
My advice would be to work with a metronome, it's the musicians best friend.
Stevo
05-28-2005, 04:22 AM
hi guys my name is steve.
I have been playing for about 5 years and love double bass drum.
Wankmaster Joe
05-28-2005, 09:29 PM
Good for you.
cjcdrums
05-28-2005, 09:55 PM
hi guys my name is steve.
I have been playing for about 5 years and love double bass drum.
Welcome to the forum, Steve. You've come to the right place!
Admitting it is the first step to recovery!
dorothy
05-29-2005, 03:04 PM
last week i had a gig and went into one of my foot flurries as i like to call them. during such, the screws that hold the pedal to the back brace came out on my right foot. these are not cheap pedal either, Gibralter double chain Intruder 9600's. at the end of the song i had to switch with someone elses pedals, Pearl double chains, nice but slow response (though that may have been his own personal setting). this is not the first time it's happened, but the first in show. my question is, is it a flaw in the pedals, or my technique, or would simply tightening them down daily curb the problem
Qaatar
05-29-2005, 07:41 PM
Switch to Axis :D ...no more chains and straps, the direct link drive shaft cures all those problems.
dorothy
05-29-2005, 09:15 PM
didn't have a problem with the chain, it was the screws at the back of the pedal that connect the pedal itself to the heel of the pedal
peter
05-30-2005, 07:06 AM
Every pedal can have screw come loose from time
to time. Check the pedal, before the gigs, from
time to time and carry some appropriate tools.
If the Eliminator chains are too slow, try the belts
and move the Power-Shifter all the way in.
Direct-drive pedals are the most responsive and
the Axis is the top. I love mine. However, I love
the Pearl Eliminators too and for the money, I
still rank them the top buy.
Regarding this speed thing, I want to say, now,
that we should be talking about control and in-
corporating whatever double-kicking we do into
the music, whatever it is. Otherwise, it serves
no purpose.
Good luck.
Yeah, are you lost, bevs joey? I believe you are looking for the Pearl Drummer's Forum, where everyone idolizes Joey Jordison. This is the messageboard where we bite our thumb at people like that, because we know that not only would Virgil utterly obliterate Joey with multiple limbs lost in unfortunate shmelting accidents, he could play more complex rudiments with his nostrils (musically, in a song) than all the death metal drummers of the world put together. Touche!
I don't fancy you say these kind off things. Every pro-drummer, deathmetal, jazz heavy metal ,pop/rock or whatever has spend lots off hours practising and all have lots of discipline and they ALL got talent. There are exceptions ofcourse. But jordison is the drummer for slipknot and you are definetely not. (I'm no jordison fan.)
And comparing a drummer who plays in a band like slipknot to a drummer like virgil; is like comparing oxigen to a vacuum.
Show respect for people who achieve what they aime for.
I guess for some it's more easy to be negative than positive.
Sammy
05-30-2005, 01:21 PM
And comparing a drummer who plays in a band like slipknot to a drummer like virgil; is like comparing oxigen to a vacuum.
So basically what you are saying is that virgil is so much better that he (metaphorically) sucks up all death metal drummers and deposits them into a paper bag to later be disposed of?
I don't think you are right in judging drummers based on the talents they DON'T show, what kind of sense does that make?
Slipknot is "music" for angry children, and thus every member basically portrays such in their playing, so unless you yourself are an angry, confused, lonely child and have nothing but hate for the world, you're probably going to prefer virgil, or any other professional and mature drummer.
So I'll shoot him some respect, I respect joey for being a loud angry childish drummer who more contributes to this trendy hardcore music scene problem than he does to solve it, because that's what he has aimed for, and has certainly accomplished.
As far as my double bass limit goes, we'll leave it at: fast enough ;) alot of people lately have the wrong idea about double bass, I know it is YOUR music and double bass is to be used as YOU wish, but the continuing trend of hardcore / death metal is really taking the impact and intensity out of almost any double bass playing, think of it from the listeners point of view for once, almost every deathmetal band in the world plays insanely fast double bass, so when they listen to your insanely fast double bass.... where is the selling point exactly? and don't tell me it's in the vocals. just get creative about it, treat your feet more like your hands, when was the last time you saw a "250bpm with my hands" thread on this board? people seem to have a mature and 'proper' attitude toward the way they play with their hands, why not the feet too?
So basically what you are saying is that virgil is so much better that he (metaphorically) sucks up all death metal drummers and deposits them into a paper bag to later be disposed of?
I don't think you are right in judging drummers based on the talents they DON'T show, what kind of sense does that make?
Slipknot is "music" for angry children, and thus every member basically portrays such in their playing, so unless you yourself are an angry, confused, lonely child and have nothing but hate for the world, you're probably going to prefer virgil, or any other professional and mature drummer.
So I'll shoot him some respect, I respect joey for being a loud angry childish drummer who more contributes to this trendy hardcore music scene problem than he does to solve it, because that's what he has aimed for, and has certainly accomplished.
As far as my double bass limit goes, we'll leave it at: fast enough ;) alot of people lately have the wrong idea about double bass, I know it is YOUR music and double bass is to be used as YOU wish, but the continuing trend of hardcore / death metal is really taking the impact and intensity out of almost any double bass playing, think of it from the listeners point of view for once, almost every deathmetal band in the world plays insanely fast double bass, so when they listen to your insanely fast double bass.... where is the selling point exactly? and don't tell me it's in the vocals. just get creative about it, treat your feet more like your hands, when was the last time you saw a "250bpm with my hands" thread on this board? people seem to have a mature and 'proper' attitude toward the way they play with their hands, why not the feet too?
Easy lad,
I'm not saying that virgil is better. I only think he's not a drummer with the same musical approach as joey, thus I don't get it why someone is comparing joey with virgil,......that's all folks!
And I'm no death metal freak and I don't like their singing in particular.
I play drums in a melodic-thrashmetal band. I'm not superfast with double base (200 bpm 16thnotes..)
What I wanted to make clear is the fact that I don't think it's smart to say he's better than he is, and my daddy is stronger than your daddy.
And for all the things you said in your reply about what I ...??said??
Who said I liked death metal?, who said I fancy joey? Who said I liked virgil?
Who said I liked the screaming? Who said I liked insane fast doubles?
I did not mention any of those, so why did you?
I only said it's so easy to be negative.
Try and ease up, stop judging.
dorothy
05-30-2005, 03:31 PM
everyone, stop, take a breath of air. its ok. let's talk about some similarities.
i just got done jamming for the 3rd time by myself today. my band hits the studio on saturday, so i've been almost killing myself practicing all hours of the day. i feel i need a whole lot of work. we all should. remember, there will always be some 13 year old kid in a garage or basement who is gonna be better in a matter of speaking. when you feel angered or aggressed by something, take it out on your set. does it mean beat the living s*** out of it? if that's what does it for you, then go ahead. play your drums and don't worry about someone elses opinion.
KarnEvil
05-30-2005, 03:48 PM
I need a good metronome that dosn't cost 170 bucks
any ideas?
I need a good metronome that dosn't cost 170 bucks
any ideas?
boss db60 or db90 are cheaper and have the same opts.
cjcdrums
05-30-2005, 05:21 PM
I don't fancy you say these kind off things. Every pro-drummer, deathmetal, jazz heavy metal ,pop/rock or whatever has spend lots off hours practising and all have lots of discipline and they ALL got talent. There are exceptions ofcourse. But jordison is the drummer for slipknot and you are definetely not. (I'm no jordison fan.)
And comparing a drummer who plays in a band like slipknot to a drummer like virgil; is like comparing oxigen to a vacuum.
Show respect for people who achieve what they aime for.
I guess for some it's more easy to be negative than positive.
I was joking dude. It's okay. Calm down.
Sammy
05-30-2005, 06:18 PM
And for all the things you said in your reply about what I ...??said??
Who said I liked death metal?, who said I fancy joey? Who said I liked virgil?
Who said I liked the screaming? Who said I liked insane fast doubles?
I did not mention any of those, so why did you?
Easy, lad, that part was in reply to the original post, and my opinions on the whole double bass thing.
bevs_joey
07-07-2005, 10:26 AM
noone cares sammy
cjcdrums
07-07-2005, 06:45 PM
Hey, bevs! Haven't seen you around here in a while! :)
Sammy
07-07-2005, 08:13 PM
noone cares sammy
Now that YOU of all people have pointed that out to me, being the wise and respected human being you are, I think I'll take it seriously and never post here ever again.
marlos
09-02-2005, 11:50 AM
Hi ! for a video on the double stroke motion take a look at the video section at http://www.edrums.gr/video.html. Plus take a look at the 6 groupings mini demonstration .Hope you will enjoy this !
Panos
Hey guys.
I was just wondering, at what speed can you play your double bass drums? Dog Boots is at about 200 (x4=800 bassdrums in a minute! sick..) I guess..
My limit is at about 170, just single strokes,.. I'll probably never understand how to play double strokes I guess.. any tips on how to practice that?
What is your speed limit on the bassdrum? And is it possible to play Dog Boots with just single strokes? I've seen death metal/speed metal bands play at insane speeds with single strokes..
And has anyone ever heard of Nichlas Barker from Dimmu Borgir? I don't know if he plays single or double strokes but his speed is just rediculous! I'm not even sure if he plays all the stuff or if a computer is playing along or something. I've seen a Dimmu Borgir DVD once, just to see his feet, but they never focus on it.. kind of strange.. And watching that DVD was terrible, their music is just plain ugly!
cjcdrums
09-02-2005, 12:48 PM
Like I said in the other thread, that is a great video!
If you are interested in learning double bass double strokes, you NEED to watch that video. It has an excellent explanation of his technique.
jakelwilliams
09-02-2005, 09:52 PM
Hey guys.
I was just wondering, at what speed can you play your double bass drums? Dog Boots is at about 200 (x4=800 bassdrums in a minute! sick..) I guess..
My limit is at about 170, just single strokes,.. I'll probably never understand how to play double strokes I guess.. any tips on how to practice that?
What is your speed limit on the bassdrum? And is it possible to play Dog Boots with just single strokes? I've seen death metal/speed metal bands play at insane speeds with single strokes..
And has anyone ever heard of Nichlas Barker from Dimmu Borgir? I don't know if he plays single or double strokes but his speed is just rediculous! I'm not even sure if he plays all the stuff or if a computer is playing along or something. I've seen a Dimmu Borgir DVD once, just to see his feet, but they never focus on it.. kind of strange.. And watching that DVD was terrible, their music is just plain ugly!
Hey, im only 14, ive been playing for 4 years, and i can get 200 BPM 16th notes on double bass singles. not even my top speed, but its pushing it. so yes, it is possable to play dog boots with single strokes. well, you probly wont believe my speed, cuz i know that its a big deal for you guys to hit 200 bpm onur bass drum, but w/e. alls it takes is alittle bit of practice and alot of ambition...ah who am i kidding, ur either good or u suck. haha. well ttul ~ JAKE
Johan_Bjorkman
02-05-2006, 03:48 AM
There is this www.timwaterson.com which i cant call a drummer. He sees the drums as the next olympic sport! THATS f***ing wrong. Drums is having fun.
I can give you guys some tips using double pedals... Try to "tap" lightly and dont move your leg too much. Im working on it and playd 16th notes tempo 240. Its NOT impossible! Practice! You play the drums for fun right? Dont let the drums be the next olympic sport i think thats way across the border.
DerNeue
02-05-2006, 05:53 AM
I agree with you Johan but keep in mind that those people push the boarders of our art. Their achievements can enrich our own techniques. They put in all this time finding good techniques. Time that we do not have and want to invest. Their aims can help us to become faster in at the same time more relaxed in our playing. Without a good technique and slight knowledge about it having fun can become a tough thing.
justbrandon
02-05-2006, 01:06 PM
ok where the **** is this virgil foot technique **** everyone is talking about? a dvd or something?
filus
02-05-2006, 04:56 PM
I can give you guys some tips using double pedals... Try to "tap" lightly and dont move your leg too much. Im working on it and playd 16th notes tempo 240. Its NOT impossible! Practice!
4 x 240 = 960 bmp. Will u be the next drum-god?
x86zero
02-05-2006, 05:16 PM
Here's that guy that's insanely fast.
http://www.audiovisualz.com/Romain.wmv
filus
02-05-2006, 05:19 PM
Here's that guy that's insanely fast.
http://www.audiovisualz.com/Romain.wmv
it doesnt work
filus
02-05-2006, 05:25 PM
I'm able to play 8th single strokes @ 230 bmp (4th based time). Do u think its a good speed?
I'm also able of playing very fast single strokes, I mean 16th notes at 250, but without control. I mean...I can play 16th at 250 but not at 200. That's strange! anyone experiences this problem?
I'm able to play 8th single strokes @ 230 bmp (4th based time). Do u think its a good speed?
I'm also able of playing very fast single strokes, I mean 16th notes at 250, but without control. I mean...I can play 16th at 250 but not at 200. That's strange! anyone experiences this problem?
what's the use of only being able to fizzle at 250bpm
practice every tempo from slow to fast
practice more
and after it practice again
Drumcanman
02-06-2006, 01:37 PM
There is this www.timwaterson.com which i cant call a drummer. He sees the drums as the next olympic sport! THATS f***ing wrong. Drums is having fun.
Yeah WHO is this Tim Waterson GUY LOL
I have Been saying DUMMING the Next olympic sport for years out of FUN and I designed a T SHIRT with THe LOGO drumming the next olympic sport but it is ALL IN FUN>>>>>
I can give you guys some tips using double pedals... Try to "tap" lightly and dont move your leg too much. Im working on it and playd 16th notes tempo 240. Its NOT impossible! Practice! You play the drums for fun right? Dont let the drums be the next olympic sport i think thats way across the border.
DRUMS IS FUN so take quotes for fun TOO seriously.
Yes 240 and 250 is not impossible just VERY duifficult to do for REAL.
For ALL the drummers trying to play 16 th notes
Try this.
I gave a simple exercise for DRUMMERS to help check their accuracy.
Play your weak foot in time with a metrenome playing exactly 1/2 the speed you think you are playing for both feet
Dont set the metrenome on 1/4s put it at exactly the speed one foot is playing and see if you can lock in.Then do the strong foot anen do both.
YOU will hear the metrenome and your foot go in and out of time and when it does YOU ARE FLOATING!
Tim
www.timwaterson.com
peter
02-06-2006, 03:20 PM
Tim,
You are real! I love you, for that and
thanks for all the help you have been
to all of us, on the site!
filus
02-07-2006, 03:01 AM
what's the use of only being able to fizzle at 250bpm
practice every tempo from slow to fast
practice more
and after it practice again
I know its not something to be proud :)
filus
02-07-2006, 03:09 AM
Is he the real TIM?? omg....
btw TIM and Peter, what do u think of my average success speed? I mean 8th notes at 220-230 (1/4 time)? I'm going better and better everyday (i don say "faster" because with "better" i include also technique, relax, etc)...but this is my max now. is it a good speed?
If you can apply it to your music, and with your band, than it's pretty darn good fellow!!
filus
02-07-2006, 06:49 AM
If you can apply it to your music, and with your band
Oh sure i can!
thank you.
I've made that question since i've seen tears coming out from my eyes when i've read a post here in which a user says he's able to do 16th at 240 (=960 kicks per minute)) :"( which means that hes exactly twice faster than me (480 kicks per minute)
What he can do you can. Practice and stay focussed on technique
Drumcanman
02-07-2006, 10:24 PM
Tim,
You are real! I love you, for that and
thanks for all the help you have been
to all of us, on the site!
PETER
Thanks
I have been reading great things from you as well
Lets keep helping others that is what we do.
OK EVERYBODY GROUP HUG!!!!!
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com
Orifist
02-09-2006, 03:39 AM
Hey Tim !
I agree with you !
Many drummers think they have just to put the metronome at 240 or 250 and play the fastest they can, but they aren't able to know how many strokes they play, I find it useless.
playing exactly 16th notes at 240 or 250 (or more) is hard !!
And,first working on slower tempo is a good stuff to keep control.
Thanks to Tim, I ve been keeping motivation !
filus
02-09-2006, 03:55 AM
Many drummers think they have just to put the metronome at 240 or 250 and play the fastest they can
I think that no one needs the metronome to do this...if someone pickups the metronome is because he wanna stay in time...imho
Orifist
02-09-2006, 04:17 AM
yes, but they often play with a snare and hi hat on the time and just floating feet.
The metronome is very punishing at 250. Every drummer needs one playing and practising that fast.
On the other hand, you need to be able to hear and feel your mistakes playing that fast too..
As orifist says..... floating ain't playing
Drumcanman
02-10-2006, 11:27 PM
yes, but they often play with a snare and hi hat on the time and just floating feet.
YOU guys Listen to ORIFIST
Romaine is one of the FEW who can actually play 260 bpm singles
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com
STAVROPOULOS
02-11-2006, 03:52 AM
Yeah guys, Tim is right!Romain(Orifist)is not accidentally on the half man-half machine forum!Check out his site where he has some very cool clips and you'll see that he's 100%tight!
On the other hand,what do u mean by floating?Not being on time?Or being sloppy?Or both?
George Kollias plays somewhere in the Nile cd something between 9s and 11s on the kicks(User-Maat-Re i think),but it sounds super!As he said,it doesn't matter what it it is,as long as it is tight and clean!
Orifist
02-12-2006, 04:17 AM
Yeah guys, Tim is right!Romain(Orifist)is not accidentally on the half man-half machine forum!Check out his site where he has some very cool clips and you'll see that he's 100%tight!
On the other hand,what do u mean by floating?Not being on time?Or being sloppy?Or both?
George Kollias plays somewhere in the Nile cd something between 9s and 11s on the kicks(User-Maat-Re i think),but it sounds super!As he said,it doesn't matter what it it is,as long as it is tight and clean!
Well, I mean just only when you want to see your progress with a metronome when you don't have a drumometer, but of course you can play other than 8 or 16 and triplets , and sometimes feeling just as you say 9 or 11 doesn't matter, being clean is the most important you 're right !!
for exemple, I m a fan of Max Kolesne, and if you listen first album Black force domain, no one is able to say exactly what he plays but what a ****ing brutal death metal album !!!
STAVROPOULOS
02-12-2006, 01:30 PM
Man,i haven't checked KRISIUN yet,although i like death metal!But i will,cause i have heard very cool words about them from many friends!
mathcore
02-12-2006, 03:15 PM
If you like extremme death metal like me (and I know you do), you'll like it.
STAVROPOULOS
02-14-2006, 12:33 PM
Thanks for the tip crazy drummer from Costa Rica!;)I met a guy to create a band and i saw that he owned some KRISIUN cds,so i'll definetely check em,yeah!
By the way we watched some songs from the MAYHEM dvd,which has some good shots of Hellhammer as far as the hands are concerned,but i didn't see any footwork,except his legs moving slightly.Man he has put on some weight i think!
Anyway,he had the whole set triggered and his performance was deeply relaxed!I love this guy!
andywolfdrum
02-17-2006, 08:29 AM
I have several double bass drum instruction books but not one of them deals with the issue of balance. I'm new to double bass drumming. I've read many of the problems other drummers deal with in trying to learn speed and coordination. My legs, feet, and ankles are quite strong (years of running and excercise). I have a good sense of time, technique, and musicality, but, when I try to play DB at any up-beat tempo I feel like I'm going to fall off of my pedals. It's as if I'm accustomed to having leverage from my left foot and leg. Now that both legs are playing, that leverage is gone and I feel a sense of unbalance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Also, I was wondering if anyone has any comments on "Ballistic Joe Stronsick" and his self-proclaimed secret methods to turn someone quickly into an awesome DB player. I suckered into buying one of his high-priced offers but have yet to really get into it. It sounds too good to be true (like an info-mercial for exercise gear or fad diets.)
Thanks
STAVROPOULOS
02-17-2006, 12:50 PM
Welcome to the best forum Andy!
If i were you,i would have done these things:
1)Have patience,so that my balance increases day by day,
2)Position the bass drums/pedals not too close from each other,but not too far away either and
3)Try to experiment with seat height and seat distance from the snare.
I hope i helped you man!
OnFermataDrum
02-17-2006, 02:35 PM
ITS ALL ABOUT THE ENDURANCE and CONSISTENCY! With me... sure I could play doubles at 220 bpm... but only for 30 seconds. Which doesnt mean anything... How am I going to play a show when my legs are whiped out within 30 seconds? I'd rather do what I'm doing now and play around 170-180 and keep a workout going as well as a show.
Drumcanman
02-17-2006, 07:18 PM
I have several double bass drum instruction books but not one of them deals with the issue of balance. I'm new to double bass drumming. I've read many of the problems other drummers deal with in trying to learn speed and coordination. My legs, feet, and ankles are quite strong (years of running and excercise). I have a good sense of time, technique, and musicality, but, when I try to play DB at any up-beat tempo I feel like I'm going to fall off of my pedals. It's as if I'm accustomed to having leverage from my left foot and leg. Now that both legs are playing, that leverage is gone and I feel a sense of unbalance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Also, I was wondering if anyone has any comments on "Ballistic Joe Stronsick" and his self-proclaimed secret methods to turn someone quickly into an awesome DB player. I suckered into buying one of his high-priced offers but have yet to really get into it. It sounds too good to be true (like an info-mercial for exercise gear or fad diets.)
Thanks
The balance issue has already address but just mjess with your seat height as well.
Joes so called secret is Heel and Toe Shhhhhhhhhhhh! LOL
The WFD was kind enough to post a free trailer from my dvd which teaches heel and toe,
but also how to go from HT to Complete Heel strokes only for faster speeds and endurance.
www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm
Hope this helps Good luck and God Bless
Tim Waterson
D. Slam
02-18-2006, 01:13 AM
The title of the thread is "double bass drum speed" and frank wanted to discuss how fast we can play and what technique we use. So I discussed my endurance and technique. But I would never say that I am a better drummer because of this fact. Playing singles or doubles without breaks are boring if they last too long. polyrythmic double bass drum rythms are much more interesting, but the discussion started about our ability to play just singles and doubles. So I didn't want to discuss other techniques and rythms. This we can do I think in another thread.
I often realize that threads start at one point and always end in the same discussion that drumming is much more than "....". That I think we already know ... for me that is a thing that should be clear ... but I think threads concerning special techniques shouldn't always end in a "general" discussion about drumming. A special thread should help the topic-starter and of course us to learn sth new about the "special topic". In this case it is "speed" of the feet.
As tired and used up as I am from hearing and reading about all the foot bpm's, I have to say that I totally agree with jagdkommando in this case.
D.
mathcore
02-18-2006, 09:00 AM
Thanks for the tip crazy drummer from Costa Rica!;)I met a guy to create a band and i saw that he owned some KRISIUN cds,so i'll definetely check em,yeah!
By the way we watched some songs from the MAYHEM dvd,which has some good shots of Hellhammer as far as the hands are concerned,but i didn't see any footwork,except his legs moving slightly.Man he has put on some weight i think!
Anyway,he had the whole set triggered and his performance was deeply relaxed!I love this guy!
Hey my greek friend, did you like the crazy guys from Brazil? Anyway, if you want to listen to HH aside from Mayhem (where he is out of control and totally owns) I'd recommend one of his may side projects WINDS, which is beautiful melodic/prog rock, and the drumming it's so musical and tasteful... you'll love it. He's considered by many the best black metal drummer ever, but to me he's more than that. HH RULES!!!
samboy
03-15-2006, 12:35 PM
about that joe ballistic stuff it worked for me:) i had to build my own dodgy wooden attachments and taped the to my pedals so theyre like the longboards(which are way to expensive for a kid like me) so i can use joe's technique and blast away for ages you'd be suprised how easy it really is.
Z_doubleBass
03-20-2006, 04:26 PM
i play healup. i think that it get the best sound. single strokes are the real way to play. i can play 16th notes at 260 bpm with single stroke pedals, but only for 36 seconds. those cheeter petals are gay and should be burned.
nick baker from dimmu borgir is realy good and uses singe stroke pedals.
and also dimmu borgirs music kicks ass i dont know what frank is talkin about
stefan_vortex
03-22-2006, 05:15 AM
maaaaan! this thread was started 3 fickin years ago!! we are all sick...ha! frank is it your first post dude?:D
creepingsandman
08-24-2006, 03:44 PM
hey im new here and this thread intrguied me i can play double bass sixteenth singles around 275bpm for about 5 minutes no joke
creepingsandman
08-24-2006, 07:35 PM
oh sorry
my favorite double bass drummers
are
1. dave lombardo-slayer
2. Lars ulrich- Metallica
3. chris adler - Lamb of god
4. jason bittner-shadows fall
5. joey jordinson- i hate slipknot though
6. alex van halen- van halen
there are others but these are the ones that come to mind
IronCobraMan
08-25-2006, 11:26 AM
wow....thats like saying your favorite groove drummer is jon otto of limp bizkit...
Footsoldier88
08-25-2006, 02:08 PM
wow....thats like saying your favorite groove drummer is jon otto of limp bizkit...
Nah, my favorite is Boss dr. rhythm 550
wow....thats like saying your favorite groove drummer is jon otto of limp bizkit...
This is completely off-topic, but what's wrong with John Otto?
Limp Bizkit is a "has been" act for sure, but John is a very well rounded drummer and percussionnist. I'd even go as far as saying he's underratted (upon normal drumming standards of course.)
Regards,
Christopher
Denny
08-26-2006, 01:11 PM
My few Double Basser,One thing is for sure.Playing double bass is a huge commitment,Alot of practice and maintanice.I run amile on my treadmill everyday and do this elliptical/stepper I have 5 min. forward and 5 min. backwards and it works bothsides of my legs..killer work out.And when I'm at work and get to sit down I work my legs out heel up playing double bass.I just joined a metal band 2 weeks ago and I'm gonna be ready when I hit that stage.I dont want to get up there and in the back of my mind think I hope I can do that db bass part coming up.So far practices are great no cramps or anything.I just went and got these New Balance 718 running shoes very light.
Shoes,seat height,spring tention and hydration are huge parts of this..Oh and stretch your limbs folks takecare and good to be back!!!!!!
Denny
creepingsandman
09-01-2006, 11:14 AM
wow....thats like saying your favorite groove drummer is jon otto of limp bizkit...
Im not sure what you meant by this but im sure you did not like my list
:( , But i can understand where your coming from, none of these drummers are the fastest (i can easily play faster than any of them). However double-bass just isn't about speed, its about control, its about adding a special factor to the beat. Perhaps if i gave you a brief history of the double bass it would clear up choice... na j/k but there are reasons why i choose these drummers if want i can tell u y until the nmaybe you can suggest some other double-bassers :)
creepingsandman
09-01-2006, 11:15 AM
i almost forgot i dont particullary like john otto, but my favorite groove drummer is john bonham
alencore
09-01-2006, 11:21 AM
my fav porn site is bang bros...
creepingsandman
09-02-2006, 02:20 PM
i hit 300 bpm yay :D
Prodigydrummer
08-29-2007, 08:53 PM
Virgil > all. enough said. I use the Constant Release method for double bass. Its an adaptation of the heel-toe method but for single strokes. Its basically like jojo mayer's technique for single bass. Its pretty underground and under rated & theres not many videos of guys explaining this but once learned it extremely extremely helpful, and im not even a death metal drummer.All in all i can HONESTLY say i can hit roughly 275 bpm ( once warm ) using this technique.
Vincent J.
08-29-2007, 11:51 PM
Damn, I'm really very slow with double-bass really...
Just 16th note singles I can get up to... I don't know... 120 bpm, and then it's already pretty unstable and I can't hold on for too long...
If I play just 8ths with ONE foot it already goes better, but when I put them together it goes very wrong
Matthias
08-30-2007, 06:35 AM
This thread is oooold!! But funny stuff that creepingsandman wants to explain the history of doublebass-playing to icm:D...
drummerplusone
09-01-2007, 06:25 PM
I have been playing db for about 10 years now, but I could never master the craft of double bass playing in terms of speed. Although the Thread has been exhausted, I want to throw in that db playing for the purpose of speed and endurance is not cut for every player necessarily, regardless of how vigorous, ambitious and/or dedicated ones practice routine/agenda might be. Basically, just like some drummers could face possible challenges executing certain musical arrangements-hypothesis, even if they would give it their best shot. It does not matter how hard I practice, how many db instructional DVDs I watch, I simply cannot hit certain bpms that I hear and read about; for instance doing 16th @ 250. Then again, the kind of music I am playing, does not call for these insane speeds. I do however have much respect for drummers with this cool ability though.
Vincent J.
09-02-2007, 02:16 PM
I have been playing db for about 10 years now, but I could never master the craft of double bass playing in terms of speed. Although the Thread has been exhausted, I want to throw in that db playing for the purpose of speed and endurance is not cut for every player necessarily, regardless of how vigorous, ambitious and/or dedicated ones practice routine/agenda might be. Basically, just like some drummers could face possible challenges executing certain musical arrangements-hypothesis, even if they would give it their best shot. It does not matter how hard I practice, how many db instructional DVDs I watch, I simply cannot hit certain bpms that I hear and read about; for instance doing 16th @ 250. Then again, the kind of music I am playing, does not call for these insane speeds. I do however have much respect for drummers with this cool ability though.
Yeah well, you're already talking about hyperspeed now.
If you can play 16ths at 240 I wouldn't think there's a need of getting faster... Maybe for personal arrogance, or sheer addiction, but not musical wise...
My problem is, I can't play **** with double bass concerning speed...
I'm alright technically seen (paradiddles, doubles, strange meshuggah-like thingies and for example I can play that double bass groove in the beginning of midnight bell (planet x)), but when it comes to playing straight singles at moderate speed I suck ****s... Kinda frustrating, but well, I haven't really practiced dedicatedly... And I like to put more time in fun stuff then just going for speed
cjcdrums
09-03-2007, 11:33 PM
Personally I think unless you're in a death metal band you should never have to worry about speed. And even if you are in a death metal band, control is STILL more important. Fluttering 16ths at 250 is not acceptable in my opinion. Regardless of how hard it is. If you can't play it clean, better to not play it.
Drumblast
09-18-2007, 05:28 PM
895 :D :D :D
Drumcanman
09-18-2007, 08:13 PM
Virgil > all. enough said. I use the Constant Release method for double bass. Its an adaptation of the heel-toe method but for single strokes. Its basically like jojo mayer's technique for single bass. Its pretty underground and under rated & theres not many videos of guys explaining this but once learned it extremely extremely helpful, and im not even a death metal drummer.All in all i can HONESTLY say i can hit roughly 275 bpm ( once warm ) using this technique.
The constant release toe and then heel is what steve smith teaches on his dvd. JO JO slants his foot and goes accross the pedal
The Heel toe constant release is demonstrated and explained on my youtube clips here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM&mode=related&search=
and better explanation of course is on the DVD..
There are a LOT more players doing this now
Matthias
09-18-2007, 11:17 PM
895 :D :D :D
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