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Tool
09-16-2003, 04:53 AM
Hey there,

do you like Thomas Lang?
I think heīs second to none.
Anyone disagree?

morgenthaler
09-16-2003, 06:20 AM
Well..... giving the website I guess you will find some serious Virgil fans... me included. Personally i find Virgil more exciting as a drummer than anyone else playing today!

Lang is still a great drummer though!!

Christopher
09-16-2003, 07:43 AM
Check out this thread on this board. Talks a lot about Thomas Lang. Great drummer for sure. Smooth executions on his playing.

http://www.virgildonati.com/msgboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144

Cheers!

quitou
09-16-2003, 07:44 AM
I love Lang...definitely one of my favorites and he's one of the guys (like Virgil) who's really pushing the envelope...I can hardly wait until his instructional DVD comes out...I am definitely getting that...there's an earlier thread on this message board dedicated to Lang, with some links to video clips...check em' out if you haven't...definitely worth it!!!

BrettLee
09-16-2003, 06:13 PM
Thomas Lang is definitely one of my current favourites. He's one drummer packed with techniques. Plus, he plays trad grip :) But I still prefer Virg over him... :P

Hip Alien
09-16-2003, 08:58 PM
Great technician but does he have identity??

Me.2
09-16-2003, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Hip Alien
Great technician but does he have identity??

No,.....but can he develop one......YES!

Hip Alien
09-17-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Me.2
No,.....but can he develop one......YES!

Great, i'll probably enjoy his playing more when it happens...
Technique is developed through regular practice, i like to hear originality and music.

kirk
09-17-2003, 10:24 AM
I am with you on that Hip Alien. I watch and listen to Lang and I am impressed with the physical ability but I am left Musically empty. I think this stems from the lack of originality, no uniqueness, no Aura of the person coming throught the music slamming your insides like a Donati or a Colaiuta(of course how many guys are like those 2). I do not hear and watch and say this guy has set himself apart. This is not a comparison of playing or technique but about creating an identity for oneself which might be the hardest aspect to accomplish as a musician which I hope he does.

Kirk

Hip Alien
09-17-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by kirk
I am with you on that Hip Alien. I watch and listen to Lang and I am impressed with the physical ability but I am left Musically empty. I think this stems from the lack of originality, no uniqueness, no Aura of the person coming throught the music slamming your insides like a Donati or a Colaiuta(of course how many guys are like those 2). I do not hear and watch and say this guy has set himself apart. This is not a comparison of playing or technique but about creating an identity for oneself which might be the hardest aspect to accomplish as a musician which I hope he does.

Kirk

Extremely well said Kirk !! Virgil and Vinnie are such great examples of the complete drummer, clearly identifiable styles.

DoubleBass_Rob
09-17-2003, 09:32 PM
I beg to differ, I reckon Lang has alot of musciality and individuality. Here's a guy with a massive shitload of technique, yet when it comes down to it, he stays true to the song. That is music.

Tool
09-18-2003, 03:28 AM
Heīs playing with all the Greats, I think they choose him because heīs a player as well.

morgenthaler
09-18-2003, 06:55 AM
All the greats????
Who do you refer to?

Hip Alien
09-18-2003, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by DoubleBass_Rob
I beg to differ, I reckon Lang has alot of musciality and individuality. Here's a guy with a massive shitload of technique, yet when it comes down to it, he stays true to the song. That is music.

You seem to be missing the point...i know ton's of drummers with a shitload of tecnique, but a very low percentage of originality and personality that goes with it. If i make you hear VIRGIL, VINNIE, TERRY, DENNIS etc. playing on a new record and you have a blindfold on, you'll recognize these cats.

quitou
09-18-2003, 08:04 AM
I tend to agree with doubleBass_Rob,
To me lang is an incredibly musical player...not just a person with unbelievable technique...yes he has phenomenal physical ability but everything I have heard him play sounds great to me...I think Lang is also a very original player as well...anybody who has heard him on albums or seen him solo will tell you how creative and amazing his musical creations are...I think people that say he doesn;t have originality are people who haven't heard him play much...this is Virg's site so I am pretty sure that the majority of people here have heard Virg play a lot more Lang and are thus much more familiar with his playing...I recommend listenning some more to Thomas and you guys will realize not just how physically amzing he is, but also how musical he is.

kirk
09-18-2003, 10:45 AM
Yes there is a difference between getting studio work and playing for the song which he does along with loads of other guy's. That
in itself is not overly impressive. Vinnie Has played on literally thousand of gig's many of them from a technical and creative standpoint not anything that knocks your socks off. What I am talking about is creating a style and sound that is truly unique and original and Lang just does not do that for me and I have heard the same statement from loads of other drummers. He is amazing technically and of course he can play on alot of pop and rock gigs many of which I have heard clips of, with his ability he should be able to my hat's off to him he does play for the song that is why guy's get hired.

But can I listen to him and go WOW that is an amazingly unique drumming style and sound no not yet, that is about it. He has not hit Virgil, Vinnie, Weckl, Gadd, Dennis, Simon, Bozzio territory yet as far as originality and a pure sense of personal innovation. But again how many guy's come along with that kind of ability and uniqueness, and all of them are very different at the same time. But the guy is a fantastic player with a good head that does play with restraint and taste(of course this is in the studio not soloing) and does play for the song and I give him high praise for that. And he will develop more of a personal standard that set's him apart. Of course this is just my opinion.

Regards Kirk

kirk
09-18-2003, 10:49 AM
Yeah who are all the greats that he is playing with, which has nothing to do with the main point of our discussion but I am just curious.

Kirk

Me.2
09-18-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Hip Alien
You seem to be missing the point...i know ton's of drummers with a shitload of tecnique, but a very low percentage of originality and personality that goes with it. If i make you hear VIRGIL, VINNIE, TERRY, DENNIS etc. playing on a new record and you have a blindfold on, you'll recognize these cats.

without seeming rude Hip perhaps its You who seems to be missing the point?

I've never heard a drummer who DOESNT sound like HIMSELF or perhaps,...... everyone does an immaculate clone job of all other drummers?
You can ONLY sound like you....even Impersonating someone.....Listen to the dave sanborn clones,...they sound like ..........themselves!

Originality? Please,....we're but a mixture of our influences and who we've copied/transcribed.

I'd agree there are shitloads of drummers with bags of technique saying nothing.....TO YOU though. Other people out there will hear something that you dont. Take steve smith for example......he says thomas is a GREAT player so,......what does steve hear in his playing that you dont and...... forgive me but he's in a higher position to make a judgment on thomas than you or I.

To others who hear them because...... we ALL hear players and are attracted to their playing for CERTAIN reasons..... like we are about our taste for certain food{s}. Whats dished up is highly palletable to us while too others its just shite.
Thats the way of the world im afraid and our individuality. You might like curry while i like chinese. Nothing wrong in that imho.


The Four dishes you have mentioned are speciality course for connosiers [sp]. Each member started out copying players until they had their own identity,....it didnt JUST become them and its the same with Thomas......he's still at a starting point in his playing. Give him a chance,...instead of the negativity!

I'd say he's NOT an innovator, but with his technique he could become one IF......thats his intent. Nothing wrong if he doesnt either, I'll enjoy his playing either way.

As for being able to instantly recognise a player and you saying you cant hear thomas as the other four STAND OUT on cds. I'd consider that a HIGH complement because,...... he's NOT stamping his individuality over songs...... but playing for the tune.

Just because people dont recognise you instantly doesnt mean anything in the real world. In fact ,....it can also be a blessing as,.....some players dont get hired for sounding the same way. Session players get hired for filling roles,...not just their INDIVIDUALITY.

Maybe thats something thats important to you..... instant recognition? It doesn't have to be an important point for others though, or are YOU..... missing THAT point?

Who's the painter who said.....it took me 70 years to learn to paint like a child,.... or something along those lines? Perhaps thats thomas?...who knows who cares.
I'll appreciate him for his playing whether he plays like a local pub drummer or virtuoso. Its only music...if you want to hear it.

quitou
09-18-2003, 11:26 AM
Well said Me.2,
Totally agreed with absolutely everything you say...

kirk
09-18-2003, 11:54 AM
Me.2 aside from the Thomas thread, having read loads of personal accounts of drummers from the past Tony Williams and Vinnie to name 2 of them. They all have said one of the hardest aspects of being a musician is to set yourself apart yet they believe it is essential to go to the highest level(but of course that is only if that matters to a person). Yes all of us are influenced by many and are a made up of parts of others. But part(only part) of genius is to take your influences and hone your OWN identity. Now I can listen To Tony and Gadd and Vinnie And Virgil among others and I can hear the influence BUT they have created their own standard for sure it is not just a clone job.

I differ from you that when playing on a studio gig that just playing for the music is as good as it get's. I am more impressed when someone can play for the music but yet is not just doing an impression of a drum machine but he leaves HIS identity on the record yet has enhanced the overall project. Guy's like Vinnie and Virg and Gadd and Weckl and Dennis get called on to put their personal touch on many projects not all of them but many. Both Dennis and Terry Bozzio made strong comments that part of Virgil's Greatness(not just a great technical player) but his overall greatness is that he has been influenced by many but has HIS own thing going. As Dennis said he is turning the drumming world on it's head because of his physical innovation and creative uniqueness. Terry said basically the same thing that Virg is one of only a VERY few who can set themselves apart from others in both a solo and band setting yet makes great and unique music doing both. I have to tend to agree and not just because I am just a fan. I know many of the big players think others are great players but would they say that they have set themselves apart.

I view many as great players but yet few hit me on a emotional and mental and spiritual level, where there is a unique
and original vibe coming through. For me personally that matters.
But like you said for many it does not and that is O.K.
Thomas and others knock me out as physical players and I will dig that for sure. Actually I give Thomas alot of credit for being able to play with restraint and just do what the Master wants. Many guy's cannot adapt to that pressure. But for my taste and the way I tick I am looking for something more, but hey my Wife thinks am weird and I am.;) Alot of guy's I enjoy but a few move me to a deeper place. And that is what I am looking for. Some good points by many on this post by the way. Makes for a good board.

Regards Kirk

kirk
09-18-2003, 12:09 PM
By the way I believe most of the players we talk about have alot that we can glean from whether they are truly unique or not. For some we can glean physically and others more but there is always something to learn unless we have reached their level yet, which is NOT on my part.

Kirk

jimi
09-18-2003, 01:38 PM
Man you should be a pastor or something, nice preaching of the good work of Virg, PRAISE THE LORD!!!:D

kirk
09-18-2003, 01:59 PM
Sometimes we are closer to the truth than we might know, Jimi my freind. Yes my wife also say's that I am good at getting too deep at times, more than she likes from me on occasion:D Yes I am weird but we all are in our own way aren't we? Hope so:D

Kirk

DavidPartay
09-18-2003, 08:43 PM
Thomas Lang = good
Virgil Donati = good

The only solo I've seen of Thomas Lang was FILLED with Donati influences. Even down to stick twirls and throws that Virgil Donati did 11 years ago on the Power Drumming video.

I haven't heard any of his album work, and I haven't heard any other solos.

But from that ONE solo that I've seen, yes he has some creative ideas of his own BUT for the majority, he was emulating Virgil Donati as much as he possibly could.

But damn, he must be a good player if he could do such a good job of copying him ;)

Me.2
09-19-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by kirk
Me.2 aside from the Thomas thread, having read loads of personal accounts of drummers from the past Tony Williams and Vinnie to name 2 of them. They all have said one of the hardest aspects of being a musician is to set yourself apart yet they believe it is essential to go to the highest level
(but of course that is only if that matters to a person).

Exactly Kirk ....IF,....it matters to the person!

That doesnt make anyone a LESSER player JUST because they play and dont grab EVERYONE by the balls and THAT was my point.
Everybody likes someone for a reason....everyone gravitates towards people/food for a reason. For every person that likes thomas there'll be others that dislike him, just the same as any band that arrives...some will like the music,.....others will dislike it BUT they'll all see different things in that person/band. Its OVER time though whether they become GREAT....its NOT instantaneous.

Thomas is at the beginning of his career,....he hasnt MOULDED himself into anything YET! All the guys mentioned above have a hell of alot of years playing under their belt and comparing thomas to those four is JUST RIDICULOUS! Look at the standard you guys are already setting him against,......he's never claimed to be a new Messiah..... but someone who loves to play!

I've read loads of interviews too Kirk and i'm aware of the setting yourself apart shit. I'm not disagreeing with that and DIDNT in my post. Most ARTISTE's feel they have something new to offer.

Straight question......

Were the Four mentioned GENIUS's [exclude tony]straight off,....or did they have a CHANCE to work at their craft after they JUST arrived on the scene? I think some people are EXPECTING too much from the guy.

When Chambers played in Parliament/funkadelic I didnt see people giving him a hard time for playing four to the floor. Isnt that where thomas is coming from too?


Yes all of us are influenced by many and are a made up of parts of others. But part(only part) of genius is to take your influences and hone your OWN identity. Now I can listen To Tony and Gadd and Vinnie And Virgil among others and I can hear the influence BUT they have created their own standard for sure it is not just a clone job.

Kirk,.. i didnt say they hadnt CREATED their OWN standard, I also didnt say they did a clone job either. What i said was,.....NO MATTER WHO you copy you ONLY sound like YOU. An impersonation is just that,...have a think about ANY drummer that sounds EXACTLY like someone else when they play someone elses licks.
-They JUST sound like themselves,..its hard not too because.....you're NOT that person/character/individual..you're only YOU.


I differ from you that when playing on a studio gig that just playing for the music is as good as it get's.

I didnt say THAT either. And i dont think that way.


I am more impressed when someone can play for the music but yet is not just doing an impression of a drum machine but he leaves HIS identity on the record yet has enhanced the overall project.

But that might be what the producer required from that person for that job,..... whats he to do?

What you seem to be describing kirk is wanting to hear a mass of technical shit/fills/solos and you'll be Impressed? When steve gadd played the memorex box in his vid/dvd it impressed the shite out of me and,..... enhanced the overall project without anything but a pair of brushes. At the other end his nite sprite impressed the shite out of me.
-Steves Identity came through on both projects,...with his love for music. Other people might not have heard what i did and i wouldnt expect them because they aint me.


Guy's like Vinnie and Virg and Gadd and Weckl and Dennis get called on to put their personal touch on many projects not all of them but many. Both Dennis and Terry Bozzio made strong comments that part of Virgil's Greatness(not just a great technical player) but his overall greatness is that he has been influenced by many but has HIS own thing going. As Dennis said he is turning the drumming world on it's head because of his physical innovation and creative uniqueness. Terry said basically the same thing that Virg is one of only a VERY few who can set themselves apart from others in both a solo and band setting yet makes great and unique music doing both. I have to tend to agree and not just because I am just a fan. I know many of the big players think others are great players but would they say that they have set themselves apart.

I can understand your Praising Virg. But like Tony and Vinnie he's an EXCEPTION to the rule. He's been playing how long? Do you REALLY think Thomas should be bagged in with these guys SO soon! Come on..its NOT realistic is it kirk! Do you REALLY think thomas should have set himself apart from other people by now? How many people HAVE set themselves apart and is it an INSTANTANEOUS thing ?

Can we put this into PERSPECTIVE here? Thomas lang is a guy who has worked at great length to get his technique up,..he's basically been playing pop tunes [think porcaro but not on that level] and teaching. How long or how many years has it taken Virg to reach this point and laughably.....theres STILL doubters!

I view many as great players but yet few hit me on a emotional and mental and spiritual level, where there is a unique
and original vibe coming through.

EXACTLY which is WHAT i said.



For me personally that matters.

Matters to Me.2. :)


Thomas and others knock me out as physical players and I will dig that for sure. Actually I give Thomas alot of credit for being able to play with restraint and just do what the Master wants. Many guy's cannot adapt to that pressure. But for my taste and the way I tick I am looking for something more, but hey my Wife thinks am weird and I am.;) Alot of guy's I enjoy but a few move me to a deeper place. And that is what I am looking for. Some good points by many on this post by the way. Makes for a good board.

Kirk,.....There are the Jim keltners and there are the vinnies and virg's. Both bring AND offer something of what they have,....everyone is unique but as i said,... we all gravitate to players/bands for a reason.
Because someone DOESNT hear something in someone RIGHT NOW doesnt mean they are emotionally empty. Take a look at ALL the arts,....people come along and say they're shite only to be proved wrong later WHY? Because that person is continually in growth,.....what is NOW doesnt mean it will be later.

Me.2
09-19-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by DavidPartay


The only solo I've seen of Thomas Lang was FILLED with Donati influences. Even down to stick twirls and throws that Virgil Donati did 11 years ago on the Power Drumming video.

And WHERE did virg get the twirls from? Did HE Originally think of twirling sticks or has it been done before?


But from that ONE solo that I've seen, yes he has some creative ideas of his own BUT for the majority, he was emulating Virgil Donati as much as he possibly could.

EMULATING....but did he sound like thomas or virgil.....were his drums TUNED EXACTLY like virgils or....like thomas's.?
-Does he HIT the same way? The answer is NO. He still sounded like thomas.... as only HE could.

But damn, he must be a good player if he could do such a good job of copying him ;)

lmao ;)
.

kirk
09-19-2003, 12:53 AM
I believe Thomas has been playing alot longer than some might think. He is not new in the drumming world, has been playing along time and has been doing studio work for along time. He has only begun to gain notice in the U.S. Yes Virg and Vinnie made an impression of setting themselves apart at an earlier age than Thomas. Vinnie was already considered a legend as was Virg in their early 30's of course to those who knew them. But they made there OWN mark early.

And that is a reality some people are Brilliant early on they have something others do not. You mention other Arts. Picasso, Michaelangelo, Matisse were recognized early on as being artists who were not only gifted but UNIQUE, it is just part of history and life some people have a genius early that others do not. There are many great artists but these 3 are still and always will be revered for being something others were not. Now yes everyone likes someone that others do not. That is not the point, the guy's who are considered genius to many maybe not everybody are considered to be that for a reason they are not just another on the scene they have something special, and it is seen early on. Virgil was considered early on by many to have IT! even before being well known. Most never set themselves apart but some do quickly and as you said some do over time.

And back to my point early on. Thomas is a fantastic player as David said to even be mentioned in the same breath as Virgil you are doing something great. have always said so. It is not about his ability or his technique. Has he SET hinself apart NO! not in my opinion and that to me matters. He does not speak to me on a deeper level as others. Can he, yes I never said he could not.I never said that anyone cannot grow and set themselves apart with time.I really like his playing that is not the issue, but hey there are loads of other guy's who are great players like I said but they sound too much like others who came before them and also have not set themselves apart. I still listen to them, but hey they do not grab me on a deeper level also. Does it make them bad NO WAY! they are great players not truly unique though but in the end so what.

In the end for me there are just a few who come along that are special early on like a Muhammad Ali or a Jim Brown or a Holdsworth, the guy was truly unique and special in his twenties. But hey it is just music and there are bigger things going on in life. Good debating with you, take it easy and again enjoy Virg and Thomas if you get to see them.

Kirk

Me.2
09-19-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by kirk
I believe Thomas has been playing alot longer than some might think.

He started at 5-6yrs old?

He is not new in the drumming world, has been playing along time and has been doing studio work for along time. He has only begun to gain notice in the U.S.

Kirk...are his studio credits on the same level as vinnies are/were..or dennis's? No.

He's been launched into the MEDIA of the drumming world while generally being a LOW KEY player not an underground monster.


Yes Virg and Vinnie made an impression of setting themselves apart at an earlier age than Thomas. Vinnie was already considered a legend as was Virg in their early 30's of course to those who knew them. But they made there OWN mark early.

Even Bozzio admitted that when he left zappa he thought nobody could fill his boots. Does that tell you the SIGNIFICANCE of the LEVEL vinnie was on? Thomas isnt on the level of these guys......but could be, maybe,.......Time will tell.


And that is a reality some people are Brilliant early on they have something others do not.

I agree.....im not bagging thomas in with those guys.


You mention other Arts. Picasso, Michaelangelo, Matisse were recognized early on as being artists who were not only gifted but UNIQUE, it is just part of history and life some people have a genius early that others do not. There are many great artists but these 3 are still and always will be revered for being something others were not. Now yes everyone likes someone that others do not. That is not the point, the guy's who are considered genius to many maybe not everybody are considered to be that for a reason they are not just another on the scene they have something special, and it is seen early on.

Kirk,...some artists are shunned until they die and then their work is appreciated. Again you're picking names that are far and ABOVE other normal people.
These people are RARE,... They're not the norm,...how many Tony williams's have we had since tony?
-Name them on one hand?

I dont believe thomas is one of these people, whether he can become one will be seen over time.

Virgil was considered early on by many to have IT! even before being well known.

Again Virgil is NOT the norm..he's EXCEPTIONAL kirk....you CANT compare someone like lang to donati. Its chalk and cheese. Thats why virgil is doing what he's doing and langs doing what he's doing. They're NOT cut from the same cloth.

Lets be truthful,....Donati has a command of the Instrument and the Vocabulary. Langs just overcoming the instrument...as i said about the painter that said it took 70 yrs to LEARN to paint like a child. Lang is about to start painting.....Donati's BEEN painting.


Most never set themselves apart but some do quickly and as you said some do over time.

And Bozzio's a guy thats done it TWICE! First with zappa and then the ostanato stuff......he didnt just start playing that shit from the off....he did it OVER TIME.... after playing in a more conventional way.


In the end for me there are just a few who come along that are special early on like a Muhammad Ali or a Jim Brown or a Holdsworth, the guy was truly unique and special in his twenties.

Kirk... all of us have a habit of looking at certain people that stand out and JUDGING others TOO these standards,.. that others have set.
Take Holdsworth,.... he's DEFINATELY unique,.... how many people came along with what he has.....ONLY him. But he's the EXCEPTION and not the norm.

Take a school of children, then take one year from each year......how many would be Truely Geniuses? You might find one from WHOLE the school or even none at all. But that doesnt mean that later one or more of them wont become a genius,.... because their talent wasn't INSTANTLY recognisable straight off.

Everyones different...but everyone doesnt have to be GREAT or achieve a standard for me to appreciate whether they have greatness or not. They ALL have something to offer,... even with their imperfections.





Take care on your move.

morgenthaler
09-19-2003, 07:51 AM
I think Thomas Lang is a great drummer!
More than that...... he is a fantastic drummer.
I have heard him in very few settings though.. who are those "all the greats" he has played with... I look so much forward to hearing about that! Which albums should I buy?
TOOL, You seemed to know quite a good deal about him?!
I have met Thomas twice, and he is a great guy. Extremely friendly!!
I just still think he has a lot to improve on musically, or personally in his playing.
He is 1000 times better than I will ever be, but he has NOT had that "Oh thats Lang for sure" in his playing the few times I have heard him!! I think Kirk said pretty much the same thing before, but guys like Vinnie, Weckl and Virgil have these signature styles/feels/grooves/licks etc. so you pretty much every time you hear 5 seconds of a song / piece of music you say: "oh thats Vinnie/Virgil etc. for sure"
Where can I find that with Lang????
Any recomendation will be deeply appreciated!

On a totally different page.... let me just tell you all a little story just for fun:
Sometime ago a blind female drummer heard me, and (for some odd reason) liked my playing.
4(!) months later I am in a rehersal-room with my band, and through the door walks this blind drummergirl....right away when we stop the song she says: " Hey drummer!; I have heard you before! I still like your playing!!" Man I was proud and impressed.
So were my band mates. I love to tell that story....

Me.2
09-19-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by morgenthaler
I think Thomas Lang is a great drummer!
More than that...... he is a fantastic drummer.

He is.

I have heard him in very few settings though....

Probably like everyone else.


I just still think he has a lot to improve on musically, or personally in his playing.

I'd agree from what i've heard,....But he's certainly technically incredible,..what an advantage to be in.


he has NOT had that "Oh thats Lang for sure" in his playing the few times I have heard him!! I think Kirk said pretty much the same thing before, but guys like Vinnie, Weckl and Virgil have these signature styles/feels/grooves/licks etc. so you pretty much every time you hear 5 seconds of a song / piece of music you say: "oh thats Vinnie/Virgil etc. for sure"

This is the bit that puzzles me. Some people want to bag him and yet.....what CREATIVE outlets/projects has he been able to show himself on?
I dont really know of any so, how can i say....he has shown us himself?

Hearing/seeing him on a small video snippet and at a drum clinic hardly qualifies jumping to a conclusion that he lacks musicality does it?
How many 5 second segments of langs songs have people heard? I've heard loads of the other 3, so it would be easy to recognise them. I cant however recognise someone i havent heard.

On a totally different page.... let me just tell you all a little story just for fun:
Sometime ago a blind female drummer heard me, and (for some odd reason) liked my playing.
4(!) months later I am in a rehersal-room with my band, and through the door walks this blind drummergirl....right away when we stop the song she says: " Hey drummer!; I have heard you before! I still like your playing!!" Man I was proud and impressed.
So were my band mates. I love to tell that story....

Did she do a Bootleg last time she heard you MT? :D

kirk
09-19-2003, 08:54 AM
Just do an exstensive hunt on the net Morg and you will be able to listen to quite a few clips of Lang. That is what I did last year. I listened to a good hours worth of clips.He has did a load of studio work for sure. None of which honestly stood out to me(but that is just me) it was fine as far as playing what was needed. But as you said Morg he is still working on his own signature Sound and style which is fine for sure. As a soloist I think he is still setting himself apart also.But most guy's are in this realm. I honestly was attracted to his soloing because MUCH of it was very similar to Virg not all, but quite abit.

Take a look at Marco I see loads of Terry B. in his playing but he has recently really started to set himself apart more which I think is wonderful for him.

And Morg that is very impressive for sure. That honestly does not happen to many musicians. Very nice indeed.

Kirk

Hip Alien
09-19-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Me.2
without seeming rude Hip perhaps its You who seems to be missing the point?

I've never heard a drummer who DOESNT sound like HIMSELF or perhaps,...... everyone does an immaculate clone job of all other drummers?
You can ONLY sound like you....even Impersonating someone.....Listen to the dave sanborn clones,...they sound like ..........themselves!

Originality? Please,....we're but a mixture of our influences and who we've copied/transcribed.

I'd agree there are shitloads of drummers with bags of technique saying nothing.....TO YOU though. Other people out there will hear something that you dont. Take steve smith for example......he says thomas is a GREAT player so,......what does steve hear in his playing that you dont and...... forgive me but he's in a higher position to make a judgment on thomas than you or I.

To others who hear them because...... we ALL hear players and are attracted to their playing for CERTAIN reasons..... like we are about our taste for certain food{s}. Whats dished up is highly palletable to us while too others its just shite.
Thats the way of the world im afraid and our individuality. You might like curry while i like chinese. Nothing wrong in that imho.


The Four dishes you have mentioned are speciality course for connosiers [sp]. Each member started out copying players until they had their own identity,....it didnt JUST become them and its the same with Thomas......he's still at a starting point in his playing. Give him a chance,...instead of the negativity!

I'd say he's NOT an innovator, but with his technique he could become one IF......thats his intent. Nothing wrong if he doesnt either, I'll enjoy his playing either way.

As for being able to instantly recognise a player and you saying you cant hear thomas as the other four STAND OUT on cds. I'd consider that a HIGH complement because,...... he's NOT stamping his individuality over songs...... but playing for the tune.

Just because people dont recognise you instantly doesnt mean anything in the real world. In fact ,....it can also be a blessing as,.....some players dont get hired for sounding the same way. Session players get hired for filling roles,...not just their INDIVIDUALITY.

Maybe thats something thats important to you..... instant recognition? It doesn't have to be an important point for others though, or are YOU..... missing THAT point?

Who's the painter who said.....it took me 70 years to learn to paint like a child,.... or something along those lines? Perhaps thats thomas?...who knows who cares.
I'll appreciate him for his playing whether he plays like a local pub drummer or virtuoso. Its only music...if you want to hear it.

Whoa !! Sorry, i didn't mean to hurt your feelings, this has gotten a bit out of hand.
This is a message board and we all express our thoughts and opinions, but please don't add things i didn't say:
'Maybe thats something thats important to you..... instant recognition?'
Anyhow,my opinion hasn't change.
Cheers
p.s. your quote: 'I've never heard a drummer who DOESNT sound like HIMSELF or perhaps,...... everyone does an immaculate clone job of all other drummers?
You can ONLY sound like you....even Impersonating someone.....Listen to the dave sanborn clones,...they sound like ..........themselves!
Again, i was talking about 'IDENTITY'. You form your own style by emmulating others.

Me.2
09-19-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Hip Alien
Whoa !! Sorry, i didn't mean to hurt your feelings, this has gotten a bit out of hand.

Sorry,....but you HAVENT hurt my feelings why do you think/assume you have?.
Because i replied doesnt mean anything to me but it obviously means something to YOU. if you want to draw a conclusion from it,..thats up to you.

Again,..with a small piece of information you're assuming/judging me as you have with lang.
It doesnt matter that you havent changed your opinion,.....i never expected i would change it and gave that no thought when i first replied.

You dont want to see things any other way it seems so,...thats not MY problem. As you said its a message board and i've replied,...thats all.


Again, i was talking about 'IDENTITY'. You form your own style by emmulating others.

Did i say you didnt?
Perhaps thomas hasnt emmulated enough,..... but then according to the amount of videos he's watched i'd assume he has,....just not enough for some.

And In reference to everyone sounds like themselves.
No one plays beats/fills exactly the same way which is what ALSO makes people unique/themselves. Unless people can play exactly to the millisecond of others? I dont believe they can personally

peter
09-19-2003, 11:40 AM
Steve Gadd once said this to me:

"Copy me all you want and you'll
still sound like you."

I asked about trying to copy what
other players were doing and he
didn't think it was bad at all. As a
matter of fact, he encouraged it.

He believes you can't help it and
it makes sense because our views
and individual perceptions are so
different from one another.

I heard Steve Smith mentioned. He's
a good case in point. Some drummers
love him and others hate him. I'm one
of the former but I realize that some
drummers don't dig him and it will be
because of the music, traditional tech-
nique etc. When you don't like some-
one, it's always something.

However, that something, like your
views on a subject CAN change over
time. As a matter of fact, there's nothing
you can be sure about in life except
that! Things can and will change!

A great example of this is the subject
of linearity. A lot of people that hate
it come to love it later on. It just
"happens". I think it's because it's
more thoroughly understood.

Some people hear Freakhouse and are
turned off to Virgil. Is it fair? No but
life isn't fair. People are born in their
bodies, not by their choice.

The only choice we have is to make
good with what we have because it's
what we have and while that sounds
kind of tough - the fact is that no one
else has it and that's what guys like
Steve Gadd try and spread around.

I like that message.

Hip Alien
09-19-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Me.2


Peace, we're all drummers(family) and you're entitled to your own opinion, and so am i. I am not judging you either, don't be offended, and good luck in your drumming career.

Hip Alien
09-19-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by kirk
Yes there is a difference between getting studio work and playing for the song which he does along with loads of other guy's. That
in itself is not overly impressive. Vinnie Has played on literally thousand of gig's many of them from a technical and creative standpoint not anything that knocks your socks off. What I am talking about is creating a style and sound that is truly unique and original and Lang just does not do that for me and I have heard the same statement from loads of other drummers. He is amazing technically and of course he can play on alot of pop and rock gigs many of which I have heard clips of, with his ability he should be able to my hat's off to him he does play for the song that is why guy's get hired.

But can I listen to him and go WOW that is an amazingly unique drumming style and sound no not yet, that is about it. He has not hit Virgil, Vinnie, Weckl, Gadd, Dennis, Simon, Bozzio territory yet as far as originality and a pure sense of personal innovation. But again how many guy's come along with that kind of ability and uniqueness, and all of them are very different at the same time. But the guy is a fantastic player with a good head that does play with restraint and taste(of course this is in the studio not soloing) and does play for the song and I give him high praise for that. And he will develop more of a personal standard that set's him apart. Of course this is just my opinion.

Regards Kirk

I totally agree. I don't drool over JUST chops anymore. A drummer with the works has to have his own voice(personality), be a great groover, have great technique, great time, + these guys all have an 'aura' or 'charisma' following them. That's what seperates certain cats from others.

kirk
09-19-2003, 07:29 PM
I was thinking today about drummers who when you heard them even years ago they had something very original going on that set them apart. Actually there are more than someone might think. It is not an issue of style or technique but these guy's in my opinion had a way of playing where whether back then or even now you go HEY that is Neil Peart for instance. I can think of

Billy Cobham, Jack D.
Bill Bruford, Richie H.
Vinnie C., Neil
Simon Phillips, Rod Morg.
Steve Gadd, Phil Collins
Carl Palmer, Weckl
Tony W., Horacio H.
Buddy, Peter E.
Ringo, And of course my main man Virg!
John B., Terry B.
Ian P.,
Dennis C.,

Of course there are more but I grew up listening to these guy's and they were to me very recognizable from the beginning.
And these guy's were young when they hit the scene, but they had a little something that set them apart even then and they are all legends or on the Virg(no pun intended) of that status. Whether you like their style or chops they were unique even though some of them influenced eachother.

Kirk

Me.2
09-20-2003, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by kirk
I was thinking today about drummers who when you heard them even years ago they had something very original going on that set them apart.

A Great/Excellent list of players Kirk.

All whom also played in Very Original bands with Very original music too which,.... styled their PHRASING as much as the 'Influences' they listened too. Without the influence of the Bands music they'd probably just have sound like a guy hammering away as if he was building a shed.
Keith moon comes to mind [as do others] of a guy who restructured drum music in a band context. Would his Playing or should i say 'Phrasing' have sounded the same without the same band members,.... or being in THAT band at that time?


Actually there are more than someone might think.

When i look at the amount of drummers on a GLOBAL scale,.....the numbers seem so small. And the Real Innovaters few and far between.
How many true innovaters since the great Mr williams pushed the drum boundary(s) compared to,.... the amount of players around?


It is not an issue of style or technique but these guy's in my opinion had a way of playing where whether back then or even now you go HEY that is Neil Peart for instance.

Kirk all the players you mentioned were/are 'NOTEY' players except Ringo and probably bonham in a sense. The Music they played wasnt run of the mill pop either,....this was 'stretching out' music.
Being away from the Norm[pop/blues/country] they're GOING to stand out. Odd time sigs.....the chord changes..melodies played by instruments where normally its vocal(s) Infact they're competing to become the Lead instrument/voice in some settings.
So yes,..i'd agree that..... some players you instantly recognise after listening to some albums. And if you constantly listen to players/cds.... the more you recognise the Individual coming through on other projects. But everyone Phrases the way they do and differently,....thats what makes people Individual.

Where you might list the notey players,..... someone else might list the Paul motians/keltners of the world but All with the same/ As much Individuality..... just less notes.



Of course there are more but I grew up listening to these guy's and they were to me very recognizable from the beginning.

And the music they played was in no way an Influence on them AND on your perseption(s)?
Surely it had to be as they........ PHRASED in and out of the music?

And these guy's were young when they hit the scene, but they had a little something that set them apart even then and they are all legends or on the Virg(no pun intended) of that status.

Practically All the players mentioned were in bands where 'solo' electric forms of music was/were taking off which,.. ALLOWED them to Express themselves as a player/musician, which would also have allowed them the chance to show/grow more.
-The only player right now that i can think of who took liberties with straight PoP music of the day was James Jameson and he got away with it.
[Though it enhanced the music, and not detract from it]

The guys mentioned certainly wouldnt have been doing 'Their' thing in a normal context. Which only left another field of music TOO BE different in.
Which would give them ahead start too be different because,.... they werent playing the norm. imho.

Yep,..the Holdsworths and Williams's are rare...and Virg is in that bracket of making music plyable....... like bread dough. Lets hope he doesnt Bake us!

kirk
09-20-2003, 09:41 AM
Yeah Me.2 I also could list guys like Motian, Andy Newmark
Keltner, Carlos Vega, Alan Dawson, Porcaro, Bernard Purdie,
Joey Baron, Clyde Stubb. I. muhammad, And how could I leave out Elvin J. sorry Elvin, along with Max Roach most of these guys were are not notey other than Elvin and sometimes Max and another just hit me Good o'l Philly Joe Jones Virgil's late teacher
if some would believe it or not, Bill stewart and Jeff "Tain" are definitely 2 of the somewhat more recent guy's. Just more coming off the top of my head.

Kirk

Hip Alien
09-20-2003, 09:49 AM
Richie H.
Kirk [/B][/QUOTE]

Good call, Richie is so underrated, it isn't even funny.

Me.2
09-20-2003, 10:06 AM
Bill stewarts Fantastic,....now HE grabs my ear(s). Not that Tain doesnt cuz he does too but stewart....arghhhh it brings back memories Kirk.

I had tickets for a Brecker Gig with golding, metheny and stewart and couldnt make the gig. :(

Stewarts over here in November...if i can,.. i'll see him this time. :)

Me.2
09-20-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by peter
Steve Gadd once said this to me:

"Copy me all you want and you'll
still sound like you."



Hanging with Gadd is Cooler than a Polar Bear in the North pole Peter. I could listen to your stories of him until you run out. :)

The Dr John album Tango palace is being re-released onto CD in October.
I've only seen it once on cd and, the only copy i have seen was back in 1998! Steves playing on the track 'Fonky side' is Superb....as if the other stuff he played isnt,.... but Fonky is sooooo Deep. Its Gadd at his best.

kirk
09-20-2003, 10:30 AM
Yep Hip Richie is very underrated, actually Vinnie is a BIG fan of Richie, he has such a GREASY feel but it is right on all the time.

And Me.2 your right about Bill, he is Awesome. Talk about somebody unique, I listen to him or watch him and he has just
his own approach to playing great Jazz! He is so darn creative
yet it is RIGHT for the music. You are a lucky dude!

And Jeff well we need guy's like him to say HEY! we can liven up Jazz and bring some new life to it, even if it seems unconventional at times. I love his playing.

Sorry I am turning the Thomas thread into "others we like thread"
oh well it is all about good drummimg and good music it works.

Kirk

jonberg
09-21-2003, 06:01 AM
If you think about it...ALL the great drummers of our history arenīt all great techniquall players...but they do have an identity!
Keith moon, Ringo Starr, Virgil, Weckl, Vinnie, Bonham etc.

Thatīs what makes them different from one another and the reason some musicians want to play with them!

Cheers everyone!

Milo Porto
09-21-2003, 12:01 PM
thomas lang is very good....so is virgil..but i think that thomas is more on the relaxed kind of guy when he plays...whereas virgil seems very tensed....of course i do realize that virgil is doing far more complicated stuff such as doing polyrythms over odd time meters...but when i watch thomas i feel relaxed..when i watch virgil i feel like any time he is gonna explode....thats what i feel.....but of course BOTH virgil and thomas are fantastic drummers! :D :D

jimi
09-21-2003, 02:00 PM
I find only a few drummers make me sit back and think about the drumming, whether its straight ahead or complicated stuff. I really like that, and thats something important i see in Virg.
His powers are equally mental as they are physical, i haven't heard much of Lang so i can't say much, but it did only take one listen of Virg's drumming to get me obsessive! The guy is the Einstein of drumming science imo!:)

Me.2
09-21-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by jimi
The guy is the Einstein of drumming science imo!:)
.
I'd call him the Oppenheimer ;)

DeepThought
09-22-2003, 12:50 PM
Heres some clips of Mr. Lang!

http://www.hudsonmusic.com/QuickTime/LANG/LANGQT.html

Pretty Impressive!

Hip Alien
09-23-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Milo Porto
thomas lang is very good....so is virgil..but i think that thomas is more on the relaxed kind of guy when he plays...whereas virgil seems very tensed....of course i do realize that virgil is doing far more complicated stuff such as doing polyrythms over odd time meters...but when i watch thomas i feel relaxed..when i watch virgil i feel like any time he is gonna explode....thats what i feel.....but of course BOTH virgil and thomas are fantastic drummers! :D :D

I personally think that all drummers are individual when it comes down to feel, and the way a drummer strokes the drums. Don't forget that Virgil comes from a 'Rock' backround and uses a lot of power in his drumming whereas other drummers are strictly wrists and fingers. He's probably just as relaxed as anyone else when he plays, although his level of intensity is very high !

kirk
09-23-2003, 03:37 PM
Weckl is probably the most relaxed player I have seen playing that has a very high level of technique but he just does not play with the same physical energy(exertion) and intensity as Virgil(does not make him a lesser player at all) BUT that has nothing to do with technique it is just the personality of the person and in part is the music that Weckl plays to, the intensity level is not as extreme. Virgil has always said that he loves to play physical and is a very intense guy at the same time when playing. But yet Virg plays many tunes in a more relaxed manner when called for.

The tape I have of him from a recent CAB performance shows him playing in a very relaxed manner because the tunes are more laid back and when the tunes heat up well he heats up at the same time. On the latest Hoekstra disc a number of tunes call for more restrained dynamics and some tunes call for alot more energy. Virg is one of the very few guy's who has to hop from Metal to pop to fusion to prog to funk and has to play accordingly dynamic wise but yet his personal energy and intensity is always high. So in the end it is part the music and part the personality of the guy.

Kirk

Hip Alien
09-23-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by kirk
Weckl is probably the most relaxed player I have seen playing that has a very high level of technique but he just does not play with the same physical energy(exertion) and intensity as Virgil(does not make him a lesser player at all) BUT that has nothing to do with technique it is just the personality of the person and in part is the music that Weckl plays to, the intensity level is not as extreme. Virgil has always said that he loves to play physical and is a very intense guy at the same time when playing. But yet Virg plays many tunes in a more relaxed manner when called for.

The tape I have of him from a recent CAB performance shows him playing in a very relaxed manner because the tunes are more laid back and when the tunes heat up well he heats up at the same time. On the latest Hoekstra disc a number of tunes call for more restrained dynamics and some tunes call for alot more energy. Virg is one of the very few guy's who has to hop from Metal to pop to fusion to prog to funk and has to play accordingly dynamic wise but yet his personal energy and intensity is always high. So in the end it is part the music and part the personality of the guy.

Kirk

True ! I love seeing the personal energy of a drummer, take like 'Terry' or 'Kirk Covington' for example, you can feel the energy through their physical motions as well as their facial expressions, although you can certainly feel it through just listening to these cats on cd. Powerful !

timthedrummer
10-02-2003, 06:40 PM
let me just say that i saw thomas in a clinic and was so blown away, he played so many different styles, drum and bass, hip hop, weird classical stuff and pulled it off with ease, his personality is confident and outgoing and i would say he's extremely musical. to be honest i've seen all virgils stuff and i havent seen him explore that many different styles, just fusion mainly. dont get me wrong, i love virgil, but i havent heard him play a song that i would listen to musically cuz they're all just crazy drumming (cept for dog boots) lol

morgenthaler
10-03-2003, 07:50 AM
Try listening to Southern Sons / Tina Arena / Jesus Christ Superstar etc. there are lots of examples where Virgil is not playing fusion....
Oh and I think his "crazy drumming" is very musical...

kirk
10-08-2003, 04:08 PM
All I can say is Hoekstra, Garsed and Helmerich, Arena, Steve Walsh, the Sons, Cab etc. I will take Virgil's pop, funk and R&B playing over many other guy's, and his fusion over anyones. But hey you just got to listen to know. And as Jeppe said his "CRAZY" playing is absolutely musical,simplicity does not= musicality.

Kirk

timthedrummer
10-09-2003, 08:01 PM
yeh unfortuanatly all i have heard of virgil is the fusion stuff, that includes 4 videos i've got of him, and many downloaded pieces
wats a piece i can download that is fairly simple/straight

DRUMVARNA
10-11-2003, 08:55 PM
Hi everybody!!
I think Virgil is one of the BEST musican in the world!!
his OTV album is the best,and all songs is Virgil's compose and arangement!!!
the same situation and with the Planet X songs,exactley the last album "Moon Babys!!
I like very much and V.Colaiuta and Carter Bauford and Spin Doctors drummer and many others drummer,but Virgil is hte FUCKIN beast!!!
Abouth Thomas Lang,this is the so funny drummer for me,because he play like a child with legs,and this is only technicle drimmer for me,no music!!!!
This is only my point of vew,dont engry to me!!!!
best regards!!!!

DRUMVARNA