Progessive Drum Music

[jimi]

Does anyone here try to compose any Prog Rock tunes using Virg's approach?? I gave a bash at using his Alien hip hop idea with a variation on the Terminator 2 theme in 7/8! i then turned it into sixteenth note triplets on the bass drum and messed around with layers over the top. im presuming a guitar muted chord copying the bass drum rhythm will sound ok my technique is way behind all the things i can think up of for the moment!!
Any of you guys try anything like this??

[v1rotate]

If you can get a cheap keyboard and sequencer (most new keyboards have a sequencer built in) it's great to write stuff. I'm no keyboard player but I used it extensively to write songs (straight ahead Rock songs). It also let's your creative juices flow which is important.

I usually think of rhythms first then the chord progression and melody.

[jonberg]

I have written a song based on the interdependence style of playing. My influence was Ataraxia, but my is in 11/16.
The main part is between my bassdrum and hihat foot, and then I do some variations with my hands, including soloing.
I written a bass part, and will try to explore other ideas with guitars and keys.
The figure is: RF-LF-RF-LF-LF-RF-LF-RF-LF-LF-RF- and so on...
...when I recorded the song I will put it here guys.
I don´t have any Internet right now because I have moved out but eventually I will have a computer...see you all!
Keep on drumming!

[jimi]

Good advice v1rotate and jonberg, maybe you could post a midi file of that groove, just to give it a listen!

thanks for the replies:)

[Rob from GGOD]

I'm doing Music 1 for my Higher School Certificate and took composition as an elective. My piece was inspired by King of the Universe, but alternates between 7/4 and 15/8. I sequenced it through (a lot of pretty modest and out-dated stuff) Rolands U-8 digital USB interface, using Ensoniq's MR-Rack as the sound module. It was a bitch to score, but Finale 2003 helps.

I used V-Drums (TD-10 expanded) for all drum sounds.
What are everyone else preffered sound modules?

[jimi]

Well i only recently got a Zoom Rhythmtrak 123 drum machine. im only getting used to it but its alot of fun, i can hook it up to finale later when i get the midi connections.

[Rob from GGOD]

Drum machine...BAH!!!

[jimi]

Or should i say bass machine/time keeping aid! IM the one playing the drum beats!!:D

[v1rotate]

Shouldn't shun at drum machines, very good for writing music and for practice, good for time keeping whereby you program 4 bars of time then 4 bars of silence etc etc.

Play to headphones and when it all goes silent, keep playing and see if your time is on the spot when the time comes back in.

[Christopher]

The T2 theme? Are you talking about the same theme that Brad Fiedel wrote? It's one of my favourite soundtracks!

Would be cool to give it a listen! :)

Cheers!

[jimi]

I'll see what i can do, i guess i'll finish it so! it doesn't sound anything like it and you'd have to extract the bass drums altogether to hear or see the derivative, i just added some virg BD embellishments.

Thats cool, i didn't know brad fiedel did all that movie music, i must get the Terminator soundtrack actually:)

[jimi]

I thought i resurrect this post with that T2 Theme Variation i promised.
Basically the thing is morphed into 16th note triplets with various layers on top (3 and 4 time)
As i said, its taking the alien hip hop idea and having a bit of fun with it. Unfortunately thinking up of it is one thing, and playing it is another! :(

Hip Alien Terminator (http://www.geocities.com/fuoco02ie/T2.MID) (right click, and "save as")

[rastawes]

Greetings All,

[rastawes]

let's try this again,
Greetings all,
I'm new here...ironically Alien Hip Hop has inspired me as well...at first I was using a cheap CASIO wherein I created a drum loop with some percussion sounds and I then layered some cheesy keyboard(casio mind you) and guitars accents and layers. Eventually I worked out a drum line to match...Now I'm in the process of rerecordeing the whole deal into a Boss DR-5 so that I can use it in some clinics that I'll be doing this summer...When I get some finality I'll post the currently untitled piece for your ears...Best wishes just thought I'd share...

wes

[shaftninja]

Jimi, what is 'Virgil's approach,' and his 'Alien Hip-Hop idea'? Is it a conventional way of songwriting or some wacked-out theory Virg developed?

My 15 year old guitarist in TMC wrote this riff in 4-4 that was subdivided into 9-16 and 7-16, and he wasn't even aware. I follow the numbers with my feet utilizing a more conventional pattern (x o x o x o x o o x o x o x o o -- repeat) that actually flows and accents in the right places, with a funk ride pattern on top, and a backbeat on the snare with improvisation (raw demo here -- http://www.cky2k.org/upload/uploads/TheMurderCadence-Untitledn1.mp3).

Numbers can provide so much fun and gratification sometimes! :)

[jimi]

Hey shaftninja, i can't download your demo right now but i'll definitely give it a listen during the week. But i can answer your questions for sure!

Virgil's approach to alot of his recent stuff is labelled his "Layer Groove Theory". If you have heard Alien Hip Hop (from his OTV album, Serious Insects) for example, you'll know the main double bass theme. Treat this as one "layer". Then if you step back from this, you'll hear a very simple 4/4 layer behind it on the hi-hat and snare. I used Virgil's idea in this song, and made the t2 theme in 16th triplet notes against the simple layers on top (which of course is the same in AHH). You should check out Ataraxia (from Moonbabies), and figure that one out if you can ... and if that was too easy, them give Ground Zero a bash! Those layers should provide you with much fun and gratification:D

With the example you gave me of 4/4 there, you could place the snare beats as if in odd time, or spread the left foot of the foot pattern between hihat and left bass pedal, or use funk ride pattern in 3/4 and create a recurring cycle over a few bars etc.
Use your ideas for the music, maybe the bass player has something cool to add, you can use the cymbals and snare with him, and leave the foot pattern playing along with the guitarist?

You see how this approach really opens the doors to many new ideas ...

[shaftninja]

Hey shaftninja, i can't download your demo right now but i'll definitely give it a listen during the week. But i can answer your questions for sure!

Virgil's approach to alot of his recent stuff is labelled his "Layer Groove Theory". If you have heard Alien Hip Hop (from his OTV album, Serious Insects) for example, you'll know the main double bass theme. Treat this as one "layer". Then if you step back from this, you'll hear a very simple 4/4 layer behind it on the hi-hat and snare. I used Virgil's idea in this song, and made the t2 theme in 16th triplet notes against the simple layers on top (which of course is the same in AHH). You should check out Ataraxia (from Moonbabies), and figure that one out if you can ... and if that was too easy, them give Ground Zero a bash! Those layers should provide you with much fun and gratification:D

With the example you gave me of 4/4 there, you could place the snare beats as if in odd time, or spread the left foot of the foot pattern between hihat and left bass pedal, or use funk ride pattern in 3/4 and create a recurring cycle over a few bars etc.
Use your ideas for the music, maybe the bass player has something cool to add, you can use the cymbals and snare with him, and leave the foot pattern playing along with the guitarist?

You see how this approach really opens the doors to many new ideas ...
Thank you for answering my question. I had a hunch the answer would be similar to what you stated. Also, I own a lot of Virg's discography for future reference, heh.

I also appreciate the ideas for my pattern, but check out the song first. I can't imagine playing the intro any other way. The ride pattern is in 4-4, but you could of course count it any way you wish, haha. Besides that, the left hand improvises, and I play a Bill Stewart'ish one-handed kind of like press/buzz roll accent, along with 8th note triplets (sounds very polyrhythmic over the foot pattern in 16th notes) and 32nd note ghosting. Also, we come back around to the intro and I play a completely different pattern with a really cool double bass interlude (I had a brain fart when we were recording and played the interlude slightly altered, but what can you do.. it's only a little demo for our singer to write to) Another words, I'm not just playing the foot pattern, and simply grooving. The improv is more than likely a result of my jazz training. I'm not gonna ride the independence/interdependence tradition's coattails, I'm gonna serve it!

[Apolyon]

Composing grooves with Virgil's "Layer Groove Theory" is deifinitly one of the most rewarding and challenging concepts. I recently composed a groove utilizing 4 layers; BD+SN, Ride Bell, Cow bell and aux. hihat. The overall time signature is 5/4, and the groove is then subdivided into the following patterns:
BD+SN plays 6/16 (adjusted to the 5/4)
Ride Bell plays 5/16
Cow bell plays 4/16
and the specialty: Aux. hihat plays 4-3-2-1/16

It's a very complex groove to play and very challenging to play fast. The BD+SN layer was written with double bass drum on every 16th note, but it can be played anyway you want. This layer is the "improvised" layer, where there's room to fool around.

[TrinityJoe]

Hi Everybody,


I'm new here and have been a Virgil fan since "Just Add Water." I recently completed my debut instrumental Prog CD and would love your opinion on the material. I programmed all the drums and Virgil is a MAJOR INFLUENCE even thought I'm a guitar player. I'm a very frustrated drummer. Drums usually start the compositional process for me. My material is a mix of Steve Morse/Eric Johnson meets Liquid Tension Experiment/Planet X. Check out www.joenardulli.com/tunes.htm for samples and reviews of the CD. You all seem to be an esteemed group of players here so your thoughts would mean a lot.
Also, I'm looking for a drummer in the Metro NY/Long Island area. Professionalism, attitude and CHOPS WITH FEEL are a must! Requires a high level of musicianship. However, these are real songs, not just over-indulgent playing...it's all about the compositions. Contact me at joe@joenardulli.com if you're interested.

THANKS everybody!!!

Joe Nardulli
New Hyde Park, NY

[Rod Lemos]

Hey Jimi,

I listened your ideia and just think it's GREAT man!!!!
But the problem is that I cannot understand the Alien Hip-hop Groove 'till now :confused: and even your groove ideia. Could you help me with it? Maybe if you could send me this idea written it would be good.
Congratulations and let's keep in touch

Rod Lemos (Brazil)