Neil Peart and Death Metal

[richcapo]

Hi, all!:

I'm new here, so please excuse me if I'm asking a question that has already been covered.

Here it is -- Does anyone around here like Neil Peart's drumming? Is he still considered good these days? I recently saw the "Rush in Rio" video and was blown away by the precision of his playing (full articulation of fast ride cymbal patterns as opposed to merely bouncing the stick, for example) and the limb independence portions of his solo.

I've also recently dug out his recordings from the 1980s. Songs like Tai Shan, High Water, Red Lenses and Scars impressed me from an independence perspective. He actually sounded better than I remembered on those (and other) recordings.

Also, I just recently went to a death metal concert. I didn't find anything the drummers did impressive in the least -- and the use of double bass triggers annoyed me ... it seems like cheating to not have to worry about hitting the drums evenly or employing much movement at all to generate sound. I tend to prefer drummers who play difficult foot patterns on a single bass drum, however, so I may be biased. Nonetheless, I found the death metal drumming to be quite primitive and simplistic. The bands were: Deicide, Cattle Decapitation, Goatwhore and another I can't recall.

Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Take care,

Richard

[kristdemon]

i'm afraid that's a bit correct or should i say precise? i guess it's the speed element, too much rushing a pattern into the set that when you separate guitars & bass, it isn't that melodic...but if you listen to either morbid angel, death or cryptopsy, there's a lot of difference esp the independence you are speaking of...personally i like death/grind metal bands..i can understand why drummers arnd that kind of music lack that 'ability' against drummers like virgil...

[Fatty Nash]

Your right Neil Peart is awesome. Rush may have been around twice as long as i've been alive but Neil Pearts drumming is superb. The fact he has been around for 30 years has never stopped him from pushing the boundaries of drumming. His drumming on "grace under pressure" particullaly "kid gloves" is perfect. I own 9 rush albums and my collection is ever growing. Peart never does anything half assed he always goes all out and comes up with ever imaginitive pieces.

p.s 2112 wot an album

[Jewelz]

People too often mention "triggers" however its very unlikely that they are!
What they are doing is serverely Gating and compressing the kick, Tone triggers around 80hz are used but its not that common.. but! i was surprised when i was doing sound engineering at SAE that one of the instructors recommended it, not for metal but ordinary rock.
Maybe i fell asleep in class but i tend to think that for crappy/cheapo/sloppy/tight/untuned/etc bass drums is when one would consider a trigger. So.
Maybe Death Metal drummers are poor and their bass drums sound like crap without a trigger
:P
P.S listen to Balance of Power, hes a good drummer, but whoever did the engineering on his kit should be SHOT! the bass drum sounds absolutely @#$&ED and its on BOTH CD's!
:D
Jules.

[vdreignsuponus1]

hey, name's richard too man!:D

im not a fan of peart at all!! everyone at my school that drums keeps saying how much of a god he is and how he's (these phrase fucks it) "THE BEST DRUMMER IN THE WORLD!!"

because when they say that, i know that they have no idea who virgil donati is or mike mangini, or thomas lang, or any of the more modern talents!

dont get me wrong, peart's a VERY good drummer, im just not a fan. one reason obviously being because hes really overrated! plus, i never really was a rush fan..

[C.J.]

Speeking of Morbid Angel,

At my drum school a guy I know managed to get behind the stage a get a good peek at Pete Sandoval's foot work during a recent Morbid Angel concert. The guy was totally sad when he found out at what point Pete "cheats" to play those fast patterns. He told me that he sticks plastic "cards" on the impact point of the beaters (which have Triggers intergrated inside them), and that he dosn't hit hard at all, actually without the triggers you would barely hear the Kicks at all.... That kinda sucks and kills the legend...

[Johnny]

"Cattle Decapitation?"

[8===8]

Speeking of Morbid Angel,

At my drum school a guy I know managed to get behind the stage a get a good peek at Pete Sandoval's foot work during a recent Morbid Angel concert. The guy was totally sad when he found out at what point Pete "cheats" to play those fast patterns. He told me that he sticks plastic "cards" on the impact point of the beaters (which have Triggers intergrated inside them), and that he dosn't hit hard at all, actually without the triggers you would barely hear the Kicks at all.... That kinda sucks and kills the legend...

a friend that is fan of Morbid Angel saw them live recently and said they played hardly more than 1 hour, and most people said that the reason for this is that Sandoval can't play more than that :confused:

[DJ_Sewell]

yea, me and richard

[DJ_Sewell]

yea, me and richie/vdrainsuponus are in a band together, and yea....all the drummers in our school are like "neil is the best to ever live."

[Drumblast]

Ok.

For one, the bands you saw, Deicide, Cattle Decap etc... they are not what I would would call "A" bands. I'm sorry that they have stuck in your mind as the genre's leading bands. You should have seen Origin with John Longstreth, Cryptopsy, Malevolent Creation with Dave Culross, Hate Eternal, and several others.

About cheating, I laugh at that. I would call Peter Criss a trigger cheater because that guy can't even hit a drum properly. :D
Pete Sandoval works his ass off when he plays. I hardly think cheating applies to him.

Anyway, Neal Peart is a living drum god. Everyone should pick up Signals, Grace Under Pressure and more. His style and sound were ultimate in the 70's and 80's, and it sounds just as good today. Maybe not freak Virg, but musically awesome. :cool:

[richcapo]

Ok.

For one, the bands you saw, Deicide, Cattle Decap etc... they are not what I would would call "A" bands. I'm sorry that they have stuck in your mind as the genre's leading bands. You should have seen Origin with John Longstreth, Cryptopsy, Malevolent Creation with Dave Culross, Hate Eternal, and several others.

About cheating, I laugh at that. I would call Peter Criss a trigger cheater because that guy can't even hit a drum properly. :D
Pete Sandoval works his ass off when he plays. I hardly think cheating applies to him.

Anyway, Neal Peart is a living drum god. Everyone should pick up Signals, Grace Under Pressure and more. His style and sound were ultimate in the 70's and 80's, and it sounds just as good today. Maybe not freak Virg, but musically awesome. :cool:

I don't recall ever saying that the band's I saw are "the genre's leading bands." And I am pretty familiar with Origin and John (I have "Portal" on right now, actually). I'll probably listen to Cryptopsy's second album later.

Still not all too impressed with death metal drumming in general, or either Flo or John. Flo's solo is especially bad in my opinion ... there's hardly any technique with his hands to speak of in it, and his double-kick stuff is fast, but altogether uninspiring and not very complex. And it lacks musicality, from my point of view.

I've been recommended to listend to Opeth -- they're (supposedly) not death metal per se, but I've heard they are close. And that their drummer is very good.

Another Peart fan ... cool!

As for cheating: Triggers reduce the workload for DB drummers using them. Would they be as fast, powerful or clean without them? I doubt it. But that's just my opinion, obviously.

_Richard

[Johnny]

Opeth is a great band. Their last two albums are very musical and cool.

[alencore]

yeah neil peart no matter how stiff he looks when he plays drums he did inspired the hell out of me during my woodshedding days.
a classic guy with well arranged drum parts. Tom Sawyer, Subdivisions, YYZ, that yummy drum solo of his, he is truly a legend. unfortunately the guy can't swing as i've noticed on the buddy rich tribute concerts.

[Drumblast]

I don't recall ever saying that the band's I saw are "the genre's leading bands." And I am pretty familiar with Origin and John (I have "Portal" on right now, actually). I'll probably listen to Cryptopsy's second album later.

Still not all too impressed with death metal drumming in general, or either Flo or John. Flo's solo is especially bad in my opinion ... there's hardly any technique with his hands to speak of in it, and his double-kick stuff is fast, but altogether uninspiring and not very complex. And it lacks musicality, from my point of view.

I've been recommended to listend to Opeth -- they're (supposedly) not death metal per se, but I've heard they are close. And that their drummer is very good.

Another Peart fan ... cool!

As for cheating: Triggers reduce the workload for DB drummers using them. Would they be as fast, powerful or clean without them? I doubt it. But that's just my opinion, obviously.

_Richard

I'm glad you know more bands other than Deicide etc... I thought you were a little less listened. :D I like Neal, Not Mike Peartnoy.

Flo is pretty cool. He has a very chaotic style. He's got some good hands, I've seen him a couple of times. Longstreth plays some pretty wicked D metal on the second Origin album. Anyway, rock and roll the bones. :eek:

[IronCobraMan]

pete sandoval cheating?????? hell no, when ur playing that fast, ur range of motion is very limited.... anyone who plays those speeds understands that.... some may have better power than others , but all in all , u cant hear shit over the band if ur not trigged man, its simple....

pete sandoval keeps it real on the foot work, garantee u virgil doesnt have tight singles like this guy....

[richcapo]

I'm glad you know more bands other than Deicide etc... I thought you were a little less listened. :D I like Neal, Not Mike Peartnoy.

Flo is pretty cool. He has a very chaotic style. He's got some good hands, I've seen him a couple of times. Longstreth plays some pretty wicked D metal on the second Origin album. Anyway, rock and roll the bones. :eek:

Thanks for the reply.

Just wondering, have you ever seen King Crimson live with Tony Mastelotto on drums (by himself, not with Bruford)? I saw him in 2001 or 2002 and was very impressed.

I picked up Crimson's latest live DVD -- it's a two disc set. The first is a concert from their latest album "The Power to Believe." In all honesty, I did not find the drumming for either that album or its tour all too impressive.

The drumming on the second disc, which is from the ContruKction of Light tour (the one I saw), however ... is amazing! Especially during Crim's extended improv jams. Mastelotto demonstrates incredible technique, speed and limb independence throughout the set, most especially in the improvs.

I was truly blown away by Mastelotto's drumming -- who knew a guy from Mr. Mister could be so good? In my opinion, he blows Bill Bruford clear out of the water ... in all respects.

I recommend the two-disc Crimson set to anybody who has a serious passion for modern drumming.

Take care,

_Richard

[richcapo]

yeah neil peart no matter how stiff he looks when he plays drums he did inspired the hell out of me during my woodshedding days.
a classic guy with well arranged drum parts. Tom Sawyer, Subdivisions, YYZ, that yummy drum solo of his, he is truly a legend. unfortunately the guy can't swing as i've noticed on the buddy rich tribute concerts.

That's very, very true ... his drumming is incredibly stiff and unimaginative on the Buddy Rich albums.

As much as I love some of Neil's stuff ... much of it I can't stand. It tends to be very formulaic in a verse-chorus-verse sort of way, and he usually just repeats the same patterns over and over again. Not to mention the fact that he really only uses his incredible technique during the smallest portions of a very few amount of songs. Particularly today.

Most of his newer stuff is straight-forward, 4/4. Nearly all of it is restrained ... for instance, aside for on a few songs, Neil absolutely refuses to play any rolls at all while Geddy sings (it's a "rule" of his). In addition, he really only pulls out all of the stops when he solos.

Could you imagine what it would be like if Neil approached the drums the way Carter Beauford does ... pushing his technique to the max on nearly every song, ceaselessly improvising and nary being afraid of "overplaying"? I think were Neil to do so, he'd be ranked much higher than he is in the eyes of today's drum fanbase, which, I believe, has largely overlooked him in recent years. And for good reason -- Neil's way too conservative.

Of course, when he rips ... he rips. And, for my money, he's got the cleanest hand technique around. And his single bass stuff rocks, too. Too bad you hardly get to hear any of that stuff.

_Richard

[alencore]

yeah the man has simply mellowed down on his drumming. may be that's freddy gruber's fault, i think, LOL! thank god portnoy is around, haha!

[skin snapper]

I quite like neail peart's drumming he has a feel about his drumming, like, yeh, it's hard to describe and he's darn good, but it's like comparing hendrix to steve vai or satch, they're two completely different styles and two completely different disciplines....

It's like the difference between aikido and kung fu, both would hurt cha, but in such different ways

[kristdemon]

from what had been posted...i'd like to state that it might just be our "way" of listening where the "drumparts" fits or not...for a metal fan, it's understandable that with such tempo, "dynamicness" or "proficiency" (technically speaking) is quite limited in it's option, that might be the reason why Flo might not be that interesting to a non-metal listener...but the "physicallity" of fast tempo is as difficult as "complex" dynamics that virgil or lang today chases to it's extreme...i guess this is how "beautiful" music is...to an extent we differ in evaluating "drumming" of which each of us dreams we can emulate one day from now..hehehe...

btw..drumblast, your feet and hands are fucking awesome! what shall i do to at least come close to even "half or it"? hehehe

[alencore]

try this...

http://www.matrixyde.com/mp3/dbshit.mp3

hehhehe

[kristdemon]

no offense meant alencore, that didn't help. or is it a joke? covering the youth & adding double pedals to a lame tune simply sucks! had you watched drumblast hand & footwork & their sampler "neural processor", you'd know what i'm speaking of...hehehe...
ooopss..my apologies if this sounds too serious! just really want to learn fast footing & great "handwork" fr the people who play em! good day! namaste!

[alencore]

yeah i was just kidding.
i just couldn't help it but go sprint on the pedals on the ending vamp. yeah the song was lame but man the lame audience enjoyed it, LOL!

in a serious manner, that vid of drumblast and the way he played is basically easy to do well atleast depending on your level, stamina and technique of course.

if i may suggest some, join a very good death metal or progressive metal band that will really force you to play lots of fast double bass flurries. develop your wrist and simply practice a lot. no mystery there just plain hard work and lots of beers, hahaha not really but gatorade since you'll be sweating a lot playing fast stuff. trust me energy drinks do helps and will boost your stamina aside keeping you fully hydrated. it's basically an aerobic or anearobic work out playing fast on the drums, imo.

Pinoy ka ba pre? kilala mo pala ang The Youth eh.

[Drumblast]

btw..drumblast, your feet and hands are fucking awesome! what shall i do to at least come close to even "half or it"? hehehe

Thanks so much!

Well according to alencore, it's real easy. Ask him... :D

I suggest burying yourself in jazz for several years. Hook up with people like Jim Chapin, Gary Chaffee, Joe Morello, Frank Katz etc...
Then when you have completely lost touch with popular music, get in a death metal band and work it. That's basically what happened to me. :p
I'm lucky that I found my main guitar guy Mark Weathers, who absolutely refuses to play in 4/4. Our music has similar odd sections like Mahavishnu Orchestra, but the double bass is essential to make it brutal.

Listen to Celestial Terrestrial Commuters off the Birds of Fire album. Then play it with 32nd notes on the kicks. :D

[Drumblast]

:cool: Thanks for the reply.

Just wondering, have you ever seen King Crimson live with Tony Mastelotto on drums (by himself, not with Bruford)? I saw him in 2001 or 2002 and was very impressed.

I picked up Crimson's latest live DVD -- it's a two disc set. The first is a concert from their latest album "The Power to Believe." In all honesty, I did not find the drumming for either that album or its tour all too impressive.

The drumming on the second disc, which is from the ContruKction of Light tour (the one I saw), however ... is amazing! Especially during Crim's extended improv jams. Mastelotto demonstrates incredible technique, speed and limb independence throughout the set, most especially in the improvs.

I was truly blown away by Mastelotto's drumming -- who knew a guy from Mr. Mister could be so good? In my opinion, he blows Bill Bruford clear out of the water ... in all respects.

I recommend the two-disc Crimson set to anybody who has a serious passion for modern drumming.

Take care,

_Richard I have not heard it, but I will have to check it out. I saw them on the Three of a Perfect Pair tour. Bruford was playing his hybrid electro-acoustic kit. It was killer.
"Is this Love" by Mr.Mister has killer drums on it. It's very Chick Corea Electrik bandish (the second album). That song rocks! ;)

[richcapo]

:cool: I have not heard it, but I will have to check it out. I saw them on the Three of a Perfect Pair tour. Bruford was playing his hybrid electro-acoustic kit. It was killer.
"Is this Love" by Mr.Mister has killer drums on it. It's very Chick Corea Electrik bandish (the second album). That song rocks! ;)

DB, you are the man! A Mahavishnu fan, I see ... awesome. And knowledgable about the Crim. Nice.

Be well,

Richard

[kristdemon]

hey alencore... thanks for the info & suggestions, i'll keep that in mind. and yup, pinoy brad! thanks again!

hey drumblast, thanks very much for the suggestions too! i don't know Mahavishnu yet, but i'll research on it. thanks again! and yeah.. i dig the odd timing of your band! hehehe

[Drumblast]

Get Inner Mounting Flame, this album is my favorite and is classic. Vital Transformation is the tune. It will rock you hard!

[Ludwig00]

Hi, all!:

I'm new here, so please excuse me if I'm asking a question that has already been covered.

Here it is -- Does anyone around here like Neil Peart's drumming? Is he still considered good these days? I recently saw the "Rush in Rio" video and was blown away by the precision of his playing (full articulation of fast ride cymbal patterns as opposed to merely bouncing the stick, for example) and the limb independence portions of his solo.

I've also recently dug out his recordings from the 1980s. Songs like Tai Shan, High Water, Red Lenses and Scars impressed me from an independence perspective. He actually sounded better than I remembered on those (and other) recordings.

Also, I just recently went to a death metal concert. I didn't find anything the drummers did impressive in the least -- and the use of double bass triggers annoyed me ... it seems like cheating to not have to worry about hitting the drums evenly or employing much movement at all to generate sound. I tend to prefer drummers who play difficult foot patterns on a single bass drum, however, so I may be biased. Nonetheless, I found the death metal drumming to be quite primitive and simplistic. The bands were: Deicide, Cattle Decapitation, Goat***** and another I can't recall.

Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Take care,

Richard
agree...Jazz is a good start

[Ludwig00]

agree...Jazz is a good start
Used to go and see virgil at the grainstore....with Mark Domeney