Bass Drum Doubles HELP!!!

[stuart]

Bass Drum Doubles
HOW IS THE BASS DRUM DOUBLE STROKE ACHIEVED? I WOULD LIKE TO LEARN THE TECHNIQUE BUT CANT FIND OUT ANYWHERE!!

[peter]

Stuart,

Remember how it was, when you did it with your hands? It's not dissimilar. You have to practice, practice, practice.

By the way, I am preparing to move to a double bass configuration for the first time. I plan on duplicating what I did for me right-foot, with my left, emphasing double-strokes in the same way.

I'm not sure how your right foot is but if it's decent, consider what I said about duplicating the routines for the left foot. For instance, play all your beats, using only your left-foot in practice. Do EVERYTHING you did with the right, with the left. If you can't, slow it down, until you can and remember that slow is good.

[peter]

One more thing:

Check your pedal. What are you using? Starting out with a decent pedal design can help.

[STAVROPOULOS]

i agree with peter,stuart.try also to play grooves using your left foot on the hi-hat.if you practise these things,like peter said too,most probably in one month's time your left foot will be far more better!good luck man!oh,if you want to,tighten your left bass drum pedal too!anyway,do what u wanna,the choices are yours pal!

[Fede]

Ofcourse it's good to have a decent set of pedals or better, but the pedal should never be a "sleeping-pillow" (directly from Danish - hope you get the picture). Never let the pedal be the excuse for your feet not being able to play what you want them to. Ofcourse a pedal can be so bad that is actually prohibiting you from meaningful practice, but any pedal that's decent or better should be just fine.

I'm sure Virgil will be able to carry out the 200-210 BPM doubles on a "decent" pedal, not only top-notch ones. That means you should be able to do that too....

No? - Then it's your feet you need to work on - not the pedals. (Don't feel bad - I can't play doubles @ 200BPM either, so I need to work on my feet too... :)

[peter]

I didn't mean to imply that you should
ever rest on your equipment. Forgive me.
That wasn't my intention.

You will produce good results on most
pedals after you work on it, I'm sure.

At the same time, I want to encourage
you to work on your pedals, finding the
comfort-zone for you and if you have
any questions about adjustments etc.,
I'd be glad to help.

I have helped a number of players find
better action from their pedals with simple
adjustments, as well as assisted in buying
the right pedal for them, in terms of cost
and return for the money.

Good luck. You'll do fine.

[peter]

Treat your feet just like your hands.
One way to get things rolling is putting
your sticks on the snare and play a
double-stroke roll.

Whenever you first start out on this,
you have to start things slow. The same
applies down there.

One thing that I find very useful is playing
the RR on the kick and the LL on snare.
Repeat this until you have a real command
of it. Chances are, you can do this decently
already. Now, reverse the flow.

LL on the kick and RR on the snare. WORK
this. This is where I am going to start. It
worked on the right foot. It will work on the
left foot. Be patient.

The next step will be alternating your hands,
from one to the other, against the kicks.

You should then be ready to let the kicks run
on their own at this stage.

Of course, we'll have to incorporate them into
our beats and change where the strokes fall
but that's down the road.

Go for it. You can do it! He would tell you that!

[alencore]

I learned how to play fast doubles on my right foot bec. of this TOTO song...AFRICA.
Earlier I could play fast doubles using the heel to foot approach but I need my own pedal just to do it.
I saw D.Weckl foot technique and wow, I gotta learn that.

But being in a band you have to learn songs first and Africa was driving me nuts due to that slightly slow tempo indian type of groove bass drum playing dotted 16th notes or samba like beat.
Then finally just playing the song over and over again that slide up technique came to form.
BOOM!!! One good morning I finally can play fast doubles and some fast samba beats without any custom pedals. I could go in at any club and jam away using whatever pedal are in place and apply the newly acquired technique.

The main point...
Practicing slow figures helps as what jolly good old Peter mentioned above. Especially if you practice in a grooving feel.

[peter]

Sambas ARE very helpful, as are
most of the other ethnic grooves.

Don't forget the more recent hip-
hop patterns that are 'bastard-
shuffles'. Working on these tunes,
whether you dig the music or not
can build up kick chops.

If Virgil says anything, it's that the
kick is just another drum and as we
ghost with the snare, we should be
able to ghost with the kick.

As slow as you have to, make this
concept work. It will if you take the
time to do it. If I can do it heel-down,
you can certainly do it heel-up and
I'm a cripple!

Of course, I'm speaking as a single-
kick player BUT about to get my 2nd
pedal (can't wait). We're all in this
together. Let's make Virgil proud.

[morgenthaler]

Start S....L....O....W....L....Y and make sure everything is excactly as you planned it! The first couple of months you might feel stuck in the same place... but suddenly you feel it one day... "Hey I didn't use to be able to do this?"
Have fun!

[peter]

This is one of the things I'm now doing
more of to develop my left-foot:

www.thediametrixletter.com/leftfoot-1.wmv
www.thediametrixletter.com/leftfoot2-1.wmv

Stuff like this will only help you double-stroke,
down the road. ;)

[peter]

OK, guys - don't laugh. This is my first time
at trying these Virgil doubles.

It's appropriately called:

www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops.mp3

Listening to jonberg inspired me to make an
initial attempt. See what you guys are doing
to a jazz drummer?!

Mind you, I am a heel down player but from
watching Virgil do these and trying them, at
least now, I can't see how else to do them.

I have to do it heel up, barefoot and with the
ball of my foot way down on the board; closing
my eyes and letting up on the 8th-note touch,
just a tad. It feels totally weird.

My left pedal is all messed up but I wanted try
it anyway so you can hear how BAD it sounds!

It IS dogpoops!

[peter]

Here's today's droppings:

www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops2.mp3
www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops3.mp3
www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops4.mp3
www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops5.mp3
www.thediametrixletter.com/dogpoops6.mp3

I'm trying to feel for where the footboard responds
the best. It's real subtle.

[alencore]

LOl. I can't help but laugh at the mp3's title. Poops away!!!

I just downloaded the first poop. Man, if you're a jazz drummer turning progressive fusion or whatever you're getting there. Your foot are getting pretty dexterous already. Yeah the left still sloppy it a little but you're way way way advance now compared to myself.

[peter]

Actually, when I say a jazz drummer,
I mean from the Jazz-Fusion side, not
the straight-ahead stuff. My left foot is
practically a club-foot. It's going to take
me years to get this thing working right
but I got the time.

[alencore]

Years? no I don't think so unless you do it randomly but if you do it everyday , man, you're gonna rock!

[wcma]

Peter is right you can also apply the chores of the hand in your feet like doing the paradiddle RLRRLRLL but first you have to start it in a very slow tempo until you are comfortable then shift to a faster tempo

[Espen]

I think that one thing that is not beeing put any weight in to here is to practice heel down if you are a heel up player and vice versa. I think this is as important as practicing acuall doubles or paradiddles or any pattern. This way you exercice the muscles used in the heel toe tecnique (and probably rarely used)
This is the main diffirence between practicing doubles with hands and pracicing doubles with feet.

An important tips on this is not to overdo this sort of training, practice slow in the beginning, and slowly increase in speed and length, this technique takes ages for everyone to learn, so have patience.

[pcannon]

Hey STUART, all the info left by all is some of the best I've seen on this topic. I to have been working on these for some time, and in the begining I looked all over the web for help. What I found were basically a bunch of what I'll call shortcut techniques- heel toe, sliding techniques, etc... mostly things that required me to BUY a course or a peice of hardware. I then looked again at the players who do this well- Lang, The mighty VIRGIL, and noticed that it is very simple! Push the pedal down two times quickly! Now I realize that sounds very stupid but doing doubles with both feet is just like haveing two RIGHT FEET! If you can do good, fast doubles with your right foot, you have to train your left foot to do THE SAME THING. "But that took me two years" you say; congradulations! You now have your answer! See it's not a SECRET technique like I thought too, It time to work that left foot to do good, fast doubles like you did for your right! I know, I wished it were a secret. All the advice before this post IS how you physically do it. I just tryed to pull the curtains back for ya! There you go! Pcannon

[Espen]

great post pcannon :)

[DavidPartay]

For once, I'm happy to see a dead topic resurrected :)

[peter]

Slow tempos are essential. No doubt.

Let me also remind you of what Virgil
told us, in a master class. The single-
stroke is the most important pattern
to use in double-kicking.

Just something to remember.

Doubles are great and you should
work on them. Just don't forget your
singles. Lately, I have been working
on those 50% more.

[DerNeue]

The drummers that master doubles on the feet found some way that is to get out of the way of the pedal quickly. Lang does this by pivoting to the sides. Weckl has his approach with sliding and twisting and Virgil plays with the heel sideways of the pedal.

[IronCobraMan]

heres the technique im working on... someone tell me (who knows wat their talking about) if im going in the right direction... while raising my leg i bring my foot down for the first stroke..and as my leg is coming down, i bring the ankle up for the second stroke (which has more volume to it).... so it looks like im doing a single stroke, but its 2 with the ankle work.... it looks about right... seems to me thats wat donatis doing...

[pcannon]

I'm not sure if I'm the person "who knows what there talking about", From what I've seen, that would be Peter! In the meantime, YES ICM- That's pretty much the technique that works for me too. By the way, nobody has mentioned "Visulizing" (sorry-need spellcheck?) your self playing what you would like to be able to play!? It's been said this works for top atheletes trainning for world class competion! Just a thought. Pete

[IronCobraMan]

i like those doubles pete.... and i also understand the difficulty of the electric kick picking up all the strokes.... theyve only come so far with electronic... none the less.... ur on ur way with esso!

i jus bought me a 3000$ yamaha about 2 months ago.... its a great lil gadget to have around...tho it could never replace an acoustic kit, for sound or feel... its a great practice tool...

[unsonor]

hmmmmm ....... dogpoops ....... I mean ..... I downloded the first mp3 .... with that 4/4 ...... but ........ In my winamp the doubles are NOT EQUAL :) or do I heave a wood ear ? :) I mean ..... most horrible work with double pedal . RIGHT ? or not ?

[unsonor]

Who's mp3 are that ? I dont want to upset anyone but ... DAMN.
The Hihat And Snare sound just .... PERFECT :P

[Drumgooroo]

You know how you learn double stroke? That is really easy... watch the Virgil Donati Modern Drummer Video when he's doing the clinic at the end.. I watched about 100 times to see what exactly he was doing.. I'm getting pretty well myself, and I've been working on it for about two monthes.. oh yea.. you might want to already have some understanding of double bass drumming before just trying to learn doubles. If you want some exercises to learn the doubles and single mixed up, I can send you some stuff that I do that helps me out a WHOLE HELL oF A LOT! But anywayz, just check out that V.D. Modern Drummer Video and all your questions will be answered!
-m.c.
"I certainly wouldn't want to lead anyone.. and if I tried to lead anyone.. I would lead them back to themselves." -Victor L. Wooten

[peter]

Like you, I am now always working on my
double-strokes. When I started to, now a
few years ago, I thought about how I do
them, long and hard.

www.thediametrixletter.com/poopsy.mp3

My doubles are not equal and they likely
will never be (consider the concept), at
higher and higher speeds; though they
will always be improving, slowly but surely.

[Drumgooroo]

Those drums sound like they're triggered or are midi or something! ha ha ha.. I'm not trying to offend you or anything. Oh yea.. double stroke... you can get the feet both equally strong if you just work your ass off for about four or five hours a day.
Best of luck getting those doubles!
-m.c.